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Old 02-06-2008, 11:08 AM   #31
Bokaj
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Lesser fighters than Marciano weathered Tyson's early onslaught.
Thomas went 6, Ruddock 12, Bruno 5, Ribalta 10, Biggs 7, even guys like Mike Jameson and Green soaked up a lot of Tyson's best shots. And some of these guy didn't even believe they could win !!
They didn't all "just clinch" either.

I just dont see a guy like Marciano, with his legendary conditioning, self-belief and recuperative powers and toughness, not to mention his awkwardness and crowding style (that would break Tyson's rhythm), being blasted out early.

Lots of you guys are saying it, but I just dont see it.

Tyson slowed down after 2 or 3 rounds, and Marciano would be strong enough to cope and up the pace after that.
I won't say I'm entirely convinced, but I do like your arguments, though. It's that 30 pounds weight difference I can't see past, since Tyson was so fast and dynamic for his weight. In weight difference it's like Marciano fighting a middleweight, if you reverse it.

But you're very right when you say Tyson didn't like to get crowded. Still Marciano had to be somewhat bigger to be my favourite. But I do see where you're coming from.

In an earlier thread I actually predicted that Chuvalo would cause Tyson problems, even though he's inferior to Marciano in every aspect except size and chin. For me Chuvalo's crowding style and monster chin might see him through the first 5-7 rounds and then things will get uncomfortable for "Iron Mike". Marciano would make it even more uncomfortable for Tyson if he made it through those rounds, but I just don't see him doing that.
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Old 02-06-2008, 11:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I'm surprised so many have picked Tyson by early KO.

No, actually I'm not surprised. Tyson's always been a big favourite round here.

When two short-armed punchers collide head on, I would always pick the guy with more toughness and proven ability to win tough fights and get off the deck to win, and that's Rocky.

If Tyson knocks Rocky down 3 or 4 times Rocky's still gonna be in the fight, and he's gonna be hitting and hurting Tyson.
This isn't rose-tinted fantasy, it's the reality of the situation. These guys would be on top of each other, head-on, BOTH would get hit, and hit HARD.
I noticed that Tyson became a lesser fighter when guys would hit him back and hurt him. But when Rocky's hurt he ups his game.
Disagree completely.

Tyson doesnt become lesser when he gets hit hard. See the Ruddock fights; Fight 1 round 6 towards the end Tyson took a couple of clean blows from Razor and what does he do he taps his chin like "give me more."

Tyson would never get frustrated in a fight where he is landing consistently, only in a fight where Tyson cannot land would he grow frustrated. And even then his frustrations were generally contained. Against Marciano, he'd land plenty and because Marciano doesnt offer any stylistic advantage to Tyson, he must be the underdog in this affair.

IF Tyson knocks down Rocky 3 or 4 times, given Tyson's accuracy, power and speed the best Marciano can hope for is a mercy stoppage.
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Old 02-06-2008, 11:54 AM   #33
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

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Originally Posted by Sardu
Sorry, I didn't know it was a hypothetical situation - my bad. I think Rocky would be woefully out of shape at the weights you are stating. Tyson was similar to Marciano in height but seemed to have a much larger upper body. They both had thick legs. With modern nutrition, supplements, steroids, etc. Marciano could nowadays put on functional bulk ala Holyfield. But I think what he did worked just fine. I don't believe one can successfully predict what would happen if we took an athlete from yesteryear and then transport him into a different era. I think you are better off taking the prime Marciano of the early 1950's, as is, against the prime Tyson of the late 80's, as is, IMO. That seems more logical I think.
Sardu, I can understand your wanting to leave two fighters from different eras as they were. That is the obvious and easiest thing to do. I don't know if it is logical but, don't you think that it is unfair? That is, unfair to the fighter from the earlier era. I mean one guy gets the advantages of all modern advances and the other guy has to do without it. People doesn't appreciate what drugs can do. Would you consider a 100 mts. race between a juiced athlete and a natural athlete to be fair?

I have written about this particular issue in various posts of mine. I think the answer might be that we should specify whether we are talking about fighters as they were or how they would be under the same set of facilities. That would be fairer. As for being hypothetical, isn't any discussion about a bout between between fighters from different eras hypothetical? If we can attempt to imagine how the skills and abilities of the combatants would be put into practice to determine the result, we can surely imagine how a person would respond to drugs and supplements as well as nutritional and training advances.

Best regards.
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:23 PM   #34
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69
You picked tyson in 4??? Fanboy!!! Tyson couldn't drop mJourneyman Tillis...couldn't stop the great talent in Mitch Green....Tyson got dropped and demolished by medocrity in Douglas...wait untill he meets a real fighter!!! What are you in high school and never seen any of these people. Tyson gets destroyed by just about every top 10 ATG (I can't find him a win there to be honest!)
You sound like the idiot in this thread, so don't try to rag on other people for their supposed lack of knowledge by your standards.

Your ignorance regarding Tyson is laughable. I thought we'd gotten rid off all those myths. I suppose you think "All you have to do is stand up to Tyson and he'll crumble!" as well.

Watch a prime, late 80's, trained by Rooney, Mike Tyson please, not the latter version.
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:31 PM   #35
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

a prime tyson from 87-89(right before douglas) was amazing

just awe inspiring....then it all went downhill
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:37 PM   #36
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

At age 24, I still dont buy the Tyson was shot at 24 thing.
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:44 PM   #37
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
At age 24, I still dont buy the Tyson was shot at 24 thing.
He wasn't shot physically, but Rooney's style is what made him most effective, especially against the bigger, taller jabbers he later had problems with when he resorted to becoming primarily a brawler. After Rooney left, Tyson became a less methodical head-hunter. Still a force, but beatable. In his prime, possibly still beatable, but not nearly as simple choosing a particular style to do it.

Last edited by Sweet Pea; 02-06-2008 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:09 PM   #38
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

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Originally Posted by sthomas
Marciano weathers the early storm and KO's Tyson around 10 rounds. Marciano had a very underrated unorthodox defense.
no, he didnt, his defense was offense, thats why he was outboxed and battered on more then one occasion. Tyson all night long.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:43 PM   #39
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

Tyson by KO. He is bigger, stronger, hits harder, has faster feet, and faster hands. Marciano has the edge in stamina but I dont think that matters here as the fight will be done before stamina plays a role. A good fight, but Marciano gets outgunned.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

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Originally Posted by Jase2483
a prime tyson from 87-89(right before douglas) was amazing

just awe inspiring....then it all went downhill
I don't buy that Tysons' prime ended right before the Douglas fight. It's too convenient and it's just a lame excuse IMO. No one thought he was past his prime right before the fight, that talk only started when it turned out he could be outclassed by a good, but by no means great, fighter. He had had personal problems for years by that point. Actually according to some people those poblems provided the fury he wented in destroying Spinks. The fact his personal problems have been used to explain both his best and his worst perfomance in the 80's just goes to show how unreliable explainition it is.

Tyson wasn't at his sharpest against Douglas, but he was by no means past his prime. Compare that fight with Ali's first fight against Norton, where he was poorly prepared as well, but also several years past his prime and suffered a broken jaw early on, but still made his perhaps most difficult opponent work for his victory.

Actaully, the weaknesses that Douglas exploited was already showing in Tyson's fight against Tony Tucker. And if Tucker hadn't hurt his hand in that fight Tyson might have lost that one too. So no more excuses! Tyson was outclassed by a not too impressive boxer when still in his prime. That's always gonna count against him for everyone but the nuthuggers. Easy as that.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:06 PM   #41
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

[quote=Bokaj] No one thought he was past his prime right before the fight,
quote]

Actually, in the beginning of the 1st round the commentators mentioned that there had been talk that Tyson hadn't trained hard for this fight. It's not a lame excuse it's a fact. He was even dropped by Greg Page in sparring which is something that would never happen to a peak Tyson.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:15 PM   #42
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

[quote=Muchmoore]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
No one thought he was past his prime right before the fight,
quote]

Actually, in the beginning of the 1st round the commentators mentioned that there had been talk that Tyson hadn't trained hard for this fight. It's not a lame excuse it's a fact. He was even dropped by Greg Page in sparring which is something that would never happen to a peak Tyson.
If you read my post I agreed that he wasn't the best prepared before the fight, but that doesn't mean he was past his prime. Ali only trained a couple of weeks before his first fight with Chuvalo, but he wasn't past his prime.

There's always gonna be fights that boxers take a bit too lightly, but that doesn't mean they´re past it. Louis had 25 title defences and SRR had 99 straight victories, do you think they were perfectly prepared for all those fights?
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:29 PM   #43
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

[quote=Bokaj]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muchmoore

If you read my post I agreed that he wasn't the best prepared before the fight, but that doesn't mean he was past his prime. Ali only trained a couple of weeks before his first fight with Chuvalo, but he wasn't past his prime.

There's always gonna be fights that boxers take a bit too lightly, but that doesn't mean they´re past it. Louis had 25 title defences and SRR had 99 straight victories, do you think they were perfectly prepared for all those fights?
Tyson had lost much of his desire and cared more about partying and drugs than fighting when he fought Douglas. It wasn't just the Douglas fight, he looked noticably worse when he fought Bruno. He had evolved from a fast, lethal more patient fighter into a head hunter who just looks for one big shot.

Louis and Robinson had dedication to boxing for a longer amount of time than Tyson.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:46 PM   #44
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muchmoore
Tyson had lost much of his desire and cared more about partying and drugs than fighting when he fought Douglas. It wasn't just the Douglas fight, he looked noticably worse when he fought Bruno. He had evolved from a fast, lethal more patient fighter into a head hunter who just looks for one big shot.
He didn't look that bad when he fought Bruno, that's mostly a re-construction afterwards to excuse Tyson's loss to Douglas. Sure, Bruno wasn't his greatest fight, but neither was his fight against Bonecrusher Smith. The thing is no one was even close to suggest Tyson was past it after either one of these fights, it's only after the Douglas fight this reasoning has come into being.

He was probably a bit comfortable and overconfident against both Bruno and Douglas, but that's the case for most champions that enjoy that kind of superiorty in his division. Again, Ali was underprepared, overconfident AND past his prime when facing Norton, but still made a fight of it. Despite meeting maybe his most difficult opponent and suffering a broken jaw early on. See the difference?
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

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Originally Posted by ironchamp
Disagree completely.

Tyson doesnt become lesser when he gets hit hard. See the Ruddock fights; Fight 1 round 6 towards the end Tyson took a couple of clean blows from Razor and what does he do he taps his chin like "give me more."

Tyson would never get frustrated in a fight where he is landing consistently, only in a fight where Tyson cannot land would he grow frustrated. And even then his frustrations were generally contained. Against Marciano, he'd land plenty and because Marciano doesnt offer any stylistic advantage to Tyson, he must be the underdog in this affair.

IF Tyson knocks down Rocky 3 or 4 times, given Tyson's accuracy, power and speed the best Marciano can hope for is a mercy stoppage.
Well, I meant that Tyson becomes a lesser fighter when a guy's beating up on him. He never once turned a really tough fight around (oh, maybe Botha, but Botha was not good, and nor was Tyson then).
Tyson was a bit of a front runner.

He should have finished Ruddock off early. I dont see why that's used as such a good win for him. Tyson had the upper hand throughout that fight, he didn't have to come from behind, and he let Ruddock off the hook on more than one occasion. Sure, Tyson could take a punch, but Ruddock was throwing one or two at a time and not more. Ruddock failed to live up to his hype at the top level.
Lewis crushed Ruddock.

I disagree that Marciano is at a "stylistic disadvantage" and I dont think he'd be getting hit cleanly much. It's about range and angles.
Tyson was perfect at bowling over tall stand-up fighters like Holmes, Ruddock, Carl Williams. Guys that gave him the space to weave forward and explode from mid-range. His style isn't right for low-crouching guy like Marciano, who will crowd him and fight dirty and unorthodox.

Tyson's lateral headmovement, the way he slipped punches by bending his upper body from side-to-side while coming forward like a spring, and exploding, was EXCELLENT against orthodox, upright, rangy boxers, and if they retreated straight back he murders them every time. But it's gonna be mostly redundant against a guy like Marciano, who'd be on Tyson's chest, flinging elbows in his face, and sending punches in from odd angles.Marciano would break Tyson's rhythm by crowding him. Tyson doesn't like it messy and too close. His feet are too square on the inside and he doesn't cope too well with headbutts, despite using them against taller opponents on many occasions.

I think Marciano beats him up. It wont look pretty, and he'll have to take some shots, but I think Marciano would beat him down.

That's just my opinion.
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