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Old 12-11-2012, 05:46 AM   #271
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by BatTheMan View Post
The list is strictly an objective list of Ring Magazine contenders that Roy did not fight while campaigning at SMW.
I understand that it wasn't your list, but you've been happy to copy it, and you've gladly implied in most of your posts, that Roy chose easy fights and ducked all of these deserving guys.

I'll admit that Roy missed out on good names and he ducked/dismissed a few fighters, but your posts read as though he handed HBO a weak list of 6 guys and said "Here I want to fight them" That's how your posts read.

There's 13 guys on that list, and 6 of them definitely didn't deserve a shot. Whoever compiled that list was a complete idiot! There were 2 fighters that didn't even fight at 168 while Roy was there, so it wasn't objectve.

I haven't been biased in anyway. Liles and Collins were deserving, but Liles was with King, just like Benn was. Zod's got links of Don wanting options for a Benn fight, and I've also given a link that states in 1995, Fred Levin didn't want Roy doing any business with Don at 168. We've already discussed Eubank not wanting big fights too, so that only leaves a handful of fighters.

So has your opinion changed, now you've seen the stats on each fighter?

Surely you've got to admit, that the list was wrote from a biased perspective, and they weren't all deserving, and Roy didn't avoid all of them?
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:46 AM   #272
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
I have now checked through each resume on your list, from the time that Roy beat Toney, until the time he moved up to 175.

Some fights couldn't be made, some fighters were deserving of a shot, and some fighters shouldn't even have been on the list.



The full list is as follows:




Nunn - Nunn only had TWO fights at 168 during Roy's reign, a loss to Liles, and a win over Scully. His other fights were between 175-195.


Benn - As discussed a billion times, a fight could not be made, because Roy and King couldn't agree terms. King wanted to tie Roy to a three fight contract.


Eubank - As discussed, he's admitted on numerous occasions, that Roy was never his mandatory, and he never went after the big fights. A fight was never viable.


Collins - 7 wins during Roy's reign, 2 wins over Benn, 2 wins over Eubank, and wins over Carr, Brown and Pyatt. In my opinion, Benn and Eubank had seen better days, but I think he was deserving of a shot at Roy


Iran Barkley - NO FIGHTS AT 168, during Roy's time there.


Victor Cordorba - Just ONE win against Tim Hillie, and I don't know if that was at 168 or 175.


Tim Littles - 3 wins against Casenay Truesdale, Mike Belcher and Chris Sande.


Van Horn - NO FIGHTS AT 168 during Roy's time there.


Frankie Liles - 4 wins against Nunn, Littles, Seillier and Amaral. Deserving of a fight, but according to Larry Merchant, turned down a big money offer to face Roy. The video of this is in post 230, but no specific details are given. Liles was also a Don King fighter.


Nardiello - 5 wins against Massimillano Bocchini, Jose Vargas, Rolando Torres, Noberto Bueno and Malinga.


Ray Close - Just ONE FIGHT at 168, a loss to Eubank in their rematch.


Rocchigiani - Just ONE FIGHT at 168, a draw against Seillier.


Frank Nicotra - Just ONE FIGHT at 168, a win against Hedi El Assaidi.




You've criticised Roy for having easy fights after Toney, and you were happy to throw these names around and claim that they were deserving of a fight.

Two of the fighters above, didn't even fight at 168 while Roy was there, and FOUR other fighters only had one fight each.

So those SIX fighters clearly weren't DESERVING of a shot.

You've been very harsh on Roy, and you haven't read up on these fighters. You also haven't allowed for circumstances either.



Regards, Loudon.
Jones was at 168 from 1994 to 1996. After winning an alphabet strap against Toney, he fought noone from the top 3.

Let's see who he fought shall we?

Antoine Byrd: Ranked no. 10 by the ring. Only decent win was against Nicotra 2 years before. Since then he fought only novices to qualify for a shot at Jones.

Vinny Pazienza: Ranked no. 5 based on wins over Roberto Durans shell. Paz was a juiced up LW and surely we can agree he had no business fighting Roy. An utter joke.

Tony Thornton: Unranked. Lost to Collins and Eubank among others. Was unqualified and had zero credentials for a shot at Roy.

Merqui Sosa: Unranked. Non-title fight. Zero qualifications for a shot at Roy.

Eric Lucas: Unranked. A clear loser against novice Brannon and Tiozzo who was the only world class operator he had been in with. Another joke of a fight.

Bryant Brannon: Unranked. A 'veteran' of 16 fights and no significant wins under his belt. LMAO.


This leaves us to judge his work at SMW and considering he spent 3 years in the division and only has a single notable win what shall the verdict be?
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:08 AM   #273
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by BatTheMan View Post
Jones was at 168 from 1994 to 1996. After winning an alphabet strap against Toney, he fought noone from the top 3.

Let's see who he fought shall we?

Antoine Byrd: Ranked no. 10 by the ring. Only decent win was against Nicotra 2 years before. Since then he fought only novices to qualify for a shot at Jones.

Vinny Pazienza: Ranked no. 5 based on wins over Roberto Durans shell. Paz was a juiced up LW and surely we can agree he had no business fighting Roy. An utter joke.

Tony Thornton: Unranked. Lost to Collins and Eubank among others. Was unqualified and had zero credentials for a shot at Roy.

Merqui Sosa: Unranked. Non-title fight. Zero qualifications for a shot at Roy.

Eric Lucas: Unranked. A clear loser against novice Brannon and Tiozzo who was the only world class operator he had been in with. Another joke of a fight.

Bryant Brannon: Unranked. A 'veteran' of 16 fights and no significant wins under his belt. LMAO.


This leaves us to judge his work at SMW and considering he spent 3 years in the division and only has a single notable win what shall the verdict be?
Bat, I'm not disputing the fact, that those guys weren't great who he fought after Toney. I know they weren't. I know that half of the guys on the list were probably more deserving. I'm not going to pretend that these guys who Roy faced were great. The point I'm making is, for various reasons, a lot of the better quality opponents from that list, couldn't be made. You won't accept this. You're not allowing for circumstances.

Eubank didn't want to know. Again, Benn and Liles were with King, and Levin didn't want to deal with him. Nunn only fought at 168 twice while Roy was there. Why's Roy getting all the blame?

Just go back to the last page, and read my reply to Zod on post 262. There's a link at the bottom of the page. Just have a quick look if you haven't already seen it.

Roy won the IBF belt from Toney. Tony Thornton and Bryant Brannon were no.1 and no.2 with the IBF at the time.

What's the verdict?

The verdict is, he embarrassed the best guy at 168, couldn't get other fights, so decided to move up to 175. That's the verdict. Has he got a weak resume at 168? Yes and No. Yes because he only had 6 fights, but no because he embarrassed the best guy. Toney was the favourite, and was considered one of the best fighters in the world.

Like I keep saying, you refuse to allow for circumstances.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:37 AM   #274
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Bat, I'm not disputing the fact, that those guys weren't great who he fought after Toney. I know they weren't. I know that half of the guys on the list were probably more deserving. I'm not going to pretend that these guys who Roy faced were great. The point I'm making is, for various reasons, a lot of the better quality opponents from that list, couldn't be made. You won't accept this. You're not allowing for circumstances.

Eubank didn't want to know. Again, Benn and Liles were with King, and Levin didn't want to deal with him. Nunn only fought at 168 twice while Roy was there. Why's Roy getting all the blame?

Just go back to the last page, and read my reply to Zod on post 262. There's a link at the bottom of the page. Just have a quick look if you haven't already seen it.

Roy won the IBF belt from Toney. Tony Thornton and Bryant Brannon were no.1 and no.2 with the IBF at the time.

What's the verdict?

The verdict is, he embarrassed the best guy at 168, couldn't get other fights, so decided to move up to 175. That's the verdict. Has he got a weak resume at 168? Yes and No. Yes because he only had 6 fights, but no because he embarrassed the best guy. Toney was the favourite, and was considered one of the best fighters in the world.

Like I keep saying, you refuse to allow for circumstances.
The verdict on Jones resumé at SMW is probably above average and that's solely based on him beating (a drained) Toney.

Let's face it. Sven Ottke did more than Jones in half the time.

I don't know if I refuse to allow for circumstances, but given the fact that Jones had a fat contract with HBO (I believe) and him having a history of wanting more than the lions share of any purse, the onus was on Jones for making bigger fights and he surely could have made them had he wanted to.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:58 AM   #275
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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The verdict on Jones resumé at SMW is probably above average and that's solely based on him beating (a drained) Toney.

Let's face it. Sven Ottke did more than Jones in half the time.

I don't know if I refuse to allow for circumstances, but given the fact that Jones had a fat contract with HBO (I believe) and him having a history of wanting more than the lions share of any purse, the onus was on Jones for making bigger fights and he surely could have made them had he wanted to.
He only had six fights there, and beat the best guy.

Who out of the 13 fighters on the list could have embarrassed Toney like that?

Sven Ottke? Who did Sven dominate who was as good as James Toney? The only thing Sven has over Roy is Longevity.

You're also forgetting two important things. The only reason Sven was the IBF Champion in the first place, is because Roy vacated the belt when he moved up. Sven also had the opportunity to fight for the WBA belt. Roy never had that same opportunity of fighting for a second belt, because he and Levin didn't want to tie in to King. Life is all about circumstances and opportunities.

Guys like Ottke and Calzaghe wouldn't have achieved anything at 168, if Roy had've stayed there for the majority of his career. Those guys are lucky that he left the division.

Of course he wanted the lions share of the purse, he was the best fighter in the World.

We've discussed the DM fight to death, but you can accept that Roy made an effort to make that fight in America.

He also tried to make the Hopkins rematch.

I can also provide links, of the efforts that Murad Muhammad made to try and make fights with Holy, Lewis and Tyson. Yes he missed a few fighters, but he wasn't half as reluctant as people like to make out.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:09 AM   #276
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Watch BatTheLan disappear when froch arseholes kessler in the rematch
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:23 AM   #277
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
He only had six fights there, and beat the best guy.

Who out of the 13 fighters on the list could have embarrassed Toney like that?

Sven Ottke? Who did Sven dominate who was as good as James Toney? The only thing Sven has over Roy is Longevity.
It was apart from (the drained) Toney.
Quote:

You're also forgetting two important things. The only reason Sven was the IBF Champion in the first place, is because Roy vacated the belt when he moved up.
So you are holding it against Ottke that the belt was vacated by Roy? At the same time you are holding it against DM that he was unfairly stripped of his belts so that Roy could pick them up. LMAO. Dude. You have some doublestandards.
Quote:

Sven also had the opportunity to fight for the WBA belt. Roy never had that same opportunity of fighting for a second belt, because he and Levin didn't want to tie in to King. Life is all about circumstances and opportunities.
So it is legit to avoid some fighters by stating that they want nothing to do with their manager?

Quote:

Guys like Ottke and Calzaghe wouldn't have achieved anything at 168, if Roy had've stayed there for the majority of his career. Those guys are lucky that he left the division.
Her we go again. Roy is the king of fantasy fights. A good thing because his real resumé at SMW leaves a lot to be desired. Keep dreaming.

Quote:

Of course he wanted the lions share of the purse, he was the best fighter in the World.
He priced himself out plenty of times as I recall it. (I won't look for evidence as I suspect you agree there).
Quote:
We've discussed the DM fight to death, but you can accept that Roy made an effort to make that fight in America.
I can accept that Jones wanted DM on one of his undercards to potentially set up a clash.

Can you accept that Kohl tried to get Jones to Germany for a DM fight and not some undercard slot?

Quote:

He also tried to make the Hopkins rematch.

I can also provide links, of the efforts that Murad Muhammad made to try and make fights with Holy, Lewis and Tyson. Yes he missed a few fighters, but he wasn't half as reluctant as people like to make out.
Dude. Jones said he wanted Lewis, but that was bullshit. He settled for Ruiz because he was the easiest way towards a (paper)strap.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:38 AM   #278
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Why is it alwasy Jones that gets the blame for not fighting these guys. Does it not enter people minds that maybe there were top fighters who wanted nothing to do with RJJ?

We know Eubank didnt want to fight him. He admitted it.

Benn admitted in an interview that it was politics that meant that he didnt get the Jones fight and also said he "had no problem being no.2 to Roy Jones"

The guy only fought..what? 9 fights at SMW?
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:03 AM   #279
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by The_Sugar_Man View Post
eubank lmao c'mon he ducked herol graham after a cple sparring sessions ffs
First - you say that as if Herol Graham wasn't a highly skilled, world class boxer. McCallum called him the best boxer he ever faced, he said: He [Graham] was a pure boxer, a southpaw and very elusive. It wasn’t easy to hit him. He was very smart, very skilled.

Second - did Graham ever chase Eubank? Was he ever calling for a fight with Eubank? Was he ever in line in the WBO for a fight with Eubank? If yes to any of those and Eubank refused a fight then Eubank ducked, if no and fight didn't happen because Graham didn't go after it or didn't get in a position to be given it then Eubank didn't duck.

You cant duck someone if they're not trying to fight you. Which is the same reason Jones didn't duck Eubank - Eubank wasn't trying to get a fight with Jones.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:45 AM   #280
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

[quote=BatTheMan;14377171]

Quote:
So you are holding it against Ottke that the belt was vacated by Roy? At the same time you are holding it against DM that he was unfairly stripped of his belts so that Roy could pick them up. LMAO. Dude. You have some doublestandards.
There's no double standards. You were saying that Ottke had done as much as Roy in half the time. That's because of opportunites. Roy only had about 6 fights after Toney, and then he moved up because he couldn't fight with Benn or Liles. He couldn't unify. He vacated his belt, and Sven ended up with it. Sven then had the opportunity to fight for the WBA belt. Roy didn't get that same opportunity. I don't hold anything against Sven, but he was in the right place at the right time. He became a two weight 168 world champion. It's you who's doing a comparison.

But the only reason Sven achieved more at 168, is because Roy moved out of the division. DM was stripped and had the chance to fight for them back. But it's clear that he wasn't interested in doing so.

Quote:
So it is legit to avoid some fighters by stating that they want nothing to do with their manager?
Why are you using the word avoid? Roy was the best fighter in the world. Don wanted options, and Fred Levin didn't want to give him any. That wasn't Roy making an excuse. Roy wanted a one fight deal for Benn, King wouldn't agree to it. Levin in 1995 didn't want to deal with King. It's boxing politics. Roy didn't avoid them.

Read this.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Quote:
Her we go again. Roy is the king of fantasy fights. A good thing because his real resumé at SMW leaves a lot to be desired. Keep dreaming.
You think if Roy had've stayed at 168 in his prime, Ottke and Joe would have beaten him?

Quote:
He priced himself out plenty of times as I recall it. (I won't look for evidence as I suspect you agree there).
In who's opinion? For what fights? If Hop had've taken the 40% they'd have fought in 2002.

Quote:
I can accept that Jones wanted DM on one of his undercards to potentially set up a clash.

Can you accept that Kohl tried to get Jones to Germany for a DM fight and not some undercard slot?
It would have been completely pointless for Kohl to try and get Roy to go to Germany. Kohl only had two options. Either fight Roy in America, or not at all. We know why Roy didn't want to go to Germany. He also had more power in negotiations because he was the best fighter in the world and the unified champ. DM and Kohl both knew that for the fight to take place, they'd have to go to America. In the end they didn't go.


Quote:
Dude. Jones said he wanted Lewis, but that was bullshit. He settled for Ruiz because he was the easiest way towards a (paper)strap.
It was never Roy's intention to just go up to heavy to fight Ruiz and then come back down. The Tarver fight wasn't planned, and he left his Ruiz weight on for a while in the hope of getting Mike in the ring.

Here's one of many Murad Muhammad interviews with F-Hype. He made Roy $17M for Ruiz, and he had absolutely no reason whatsoever to lie. Zod also has other links, that read to me, as though Lewis was more than up for a potential fight, before he fought Vitali. After Vitali, he knew he'd nothing left in the tank. He could have fought Vitali in a rematch and Roy for millions and millions of dollars, but he had nothing left to give. His performance against Vitali shocked him. He never said the fight with Vitali was going to be his last fight. He didn't know it was going to be his last, and neither did Manny. It wasn't planned.


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Old 12-11-2012, 09:57 AM   #281
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Bat obviously doesn't like Roy... He can't even include Toney without putting (drained) in front of it...

He is a waste of time.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:00 AM   #282
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Why is it alwasy Jones that gets the blame for not fighting these guys. Does it not enter people minds that maybe there were top fighters who wanted nothing to do with RJJ?

We know Eubank didnt want to fight him. He admitted it.

Benn admitted in an interview that it was politics that meant that he didnt get the Jones fight and also said he "had no problem being no.2 to Roy Jones"

The guy only fought..what? 9 fights at SMW?
He always gets the blame.

Why does DM not get the blame? Or King for being greedy? Or Hopkins for demanding 50/50 and not taking the 40% that would have made him alot of money, even if he'd have given up a percentage of it?
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:03 AM   #283
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Bat obviously doesn't like Roy... He can't even include Toney without putting (drained) in front of it...

He is a waste of time.
Have you seen the guys that were supposed to be deserving of a shot?

Two of them didn't even fight at 168 while Roy was there, and four other fighters only had the one fight there.

Out of the 13 fighters he's listed, six of them weren't deserving, and other fights couldn't get made for various reasons.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:34 PM   #284
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Have you seen the guys that were supposed to be deserving of a shot?

Two of them didn't even fight at 168 while Roy was there, and four other fighters only had the one fight there.

Out of the 13 fighters he's listed, six of them weren't deserving, and other fights couldn't get made for various reasons.
How many of the challengers Roy fought at SMW was deserving?
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:35 PM   #285
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Bat obviously doesn't like Roy... He can't even include Toney without putting (drained) in front of it...

He is a waste of time.
Lol. And you just keep talking out of your ass. You are not the type to have proof disturbing a good opinion.
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