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Old 12-11-2012, 02:53 PM   #286
bailey
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Well I have to say BatTheMan put on a clinic in this thread, using facts to destroy Loudon and co.
Bat took them into deep ESB debating waters and then drowned them without a seconds mercy.
Pure clinic

I just cant see how anyone can argue with Bat about Jones SMW resume??
Jones fought weight weakend Toney and that was it, and Toney has a terrible SMW resume
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:16 PM   #287
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vAmKdgrLf8[/ame]
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:44 PM   #288
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatTheMan View Post
How many of the challengers Roy fought at SMW was deserving?
Not many. But Thornton and Brannon were ranked 1 and 2 by the IBF at the time. They wanted Roy to fight them. Also I flicked through a May 95 copy of The Ring mag earlier, and Byrd was rated very high in the rankings for all three organisations.

But again, you're missing the point. I agree with you that after Toney, his opposition was weak. I also agree that they were other fighters who were more deserving of a shot.

The two points that I'm arguing against are:


You implying that Roy didn't want to fight any other fighter on that list, which isn't true.

You were happy to post the list of 13 fighters, and claim that they were all deserving of a fight, which also wasn't true.



Two of the fighters from the list didn't even fight at 168.

Four of the other fighters only had one fight, and some of those were losses.

So the fighters who Roy did fight, were more deserving of a fight than them. The remaining fighters on that list never fought Roy for various reasons, that I've explained in detail, with links etc.

You haven't allowed for circumstances, and have layed all the blame at Roy's door.

Have you now changed your opinion of the list of 13, now I've proven that 6 of those fighters weren't deserving?

Also, are you now going to cut Roy a little slack, now you know that Eubank wasn't interested and Roy and Levin didn't want to be tied to King?
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:51 PM   #289
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey View Post
Well I have to say BatTheMan put on a clinic in this thread, using facts to destroy Loudon and co.
Bat took them into deep ESB debating waters and then drowned them without a seconds mercy.
Pure clinic

I just cant see how anyone can argue with Bat about Jones SMW resume??
Jones fought weight weakend Toney and that was it, and Toney has a terrible SMW resume
Nobody is arguing with Bat regarding Roy's resume. I agree with him.

The argument is, not all of the 13 fighters from his list, were more deserving of a fight.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:59 PM   #290
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Ah the old "Toney was weight drained" excuse.

One of the great crutches for illogical haters of Roy to lean on.

Was Toney coming down in weight? NO

In fact he had been champ at 160 only 2 years previously.

The fact that he went on to be a fat slob and balloon up in weight later in his career does not mean he was "weight drained" against Jones.

I love the way people talok about opinion as facts!

How about the fact that he came into the ring around 10lbs heavier than Jones? I dont suppose that wouldn't have given him any advantage would it??

Its not like fighters CONSTANTLY cut weight so that they can come into the ring bigger than their opponents, now is it? oh wait!

I think its because a prime James Toney is individually a better win for Jones than ANYTHING Calzaghe ever did at 168,that maybe upsets some people on here. Im only guessing.

Toney was in his prime,a 2 weight world champion with names like Nunn,McCallum(x2),Reggie Johnson, along with good contenders like Tim Littles, Iran Barkley, already on his resume,and had a record of 44-0-2

And Jones beat him when he was 25.

What was Calzaghe doing when he was 25? or in his 27th fight?

In Joes 27th fight he was beating Rick Friggin Thornberry

When he was 25 he was still fighting the likes of Luciano Torres
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:07 PM   #291
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Not many. But Thornton and Brannon were ranked 1 and 2 by the IBF at the time.
These double standards are terrible Loudon . You have implied before that you dont rate governing body mandatories, even when an opponent has been good, and then you go and knock the world title.
Here you have 2 mandatories, where one of them had been beaten in a WBO title shot previously, yet you say the WBO was irelevant then, but now when the same fighter does nothing after and becomes an IBF mandatory he suddenly becomes relevant .
Double standards Loudon. You dont learn
Quote:
They wanted Roy to fight them.
Of course they did, its a good pay day
Quote:
Also I flicked through a May 95 copy of The Ring mag earlier, and Byrd was rated very high in the rankings for all three organisations.
The guy hadnt beaten anyone and his 3 fights leading to Jones were against a 9-3-1 fighter, a 2-3-0 fighter, 9-4-0 fighter. Yet because he was rated highly by these governing bodies you think he is suddenly worthy and great. He was KOd by a 12-8-3 fighter
Quote:
But again, you're missing the point. I agree with you that after Toney, his opposition was weak. I also agree that they were other fighters who were more deserving of a shot.
Finally. Be sure you dont want to back track as normal and bring in more double standards, or do the bit where you imagine what Jones was thinking and then post that as a fact
Quote:
The two points that I'm arguing against are:
You implying that Roy didn't want to fight any other fighter on that list, which isn't true.
there is a whole list of fighters that seemed to want to fight Jones and had done more at the weight, yet you will say they should have fought in America, even though the biggest SMW fights and money were in Britain then
Quote:
You were happy to post the list of 13 fighters, and claim that they were all deserving of a fight, which also wasn't true.
Havent seen Bats list, but can recall
D Michalczewski
H Maske
F Tiozzo
R Rocchigiani
J Calzaghe
S Collins
C Eubank
N Benn
Z Erdei
M Nunn
F Liles


Quote:
Also, are you now going to cut Roy a little slack, now you know that Eubank wasn't interested and Roy and Levin didn't want to be tied to King
eubank was very interested and wanted to fight Roy
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:07 PM   #292
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishny View Post
Ah the old "Toney was weight drained" excuse.

One of the great crutches for illogical haters of Roy to lean on.

Was Toney coming down in weight? NO

In fact he had been champ at 160 only 2 years previously.

The fact that he went on to be a fat slob and balloon up in weight later in his career does not mean he was "weight drained" against Jones.

I love the way people talok about opinion as facts!

How about the fact that he came into the ring around 10lbs heavier than Jones? I dont suppose that would have given him any advantage eould it??

Its not like fighters CONSTANTLY cut weight so that they can come into the ring bigger than their opponents, now is it? oh wait!

I think its because a prime James Toney is individually a better win for Jones than ANYTHING Calzaghe ever did at 168,that maybe upsets some people on here. Im only guessing.

Toney was in his prime,a 2 weight world champion with names like Nunn,McCallum(x2),Reggie Johnson, along with good contenders like Tim Littles, Iran Barkley, already on his resume,and had a record of 44-0-2

And Jones beat him when he was 25.

Agreed, Toney was always struggling with weight and so on, it's excuses excuses.

Toney loses to Tiberi, and his team come out with excuses about being weight weakened.

Toney loses to Jones, and his team come out with excuses about weight.

Toney loses to Thadzi and his team come out with excuses about weight.

The truth is, Toney lost these fights because he was second best to the guys he fought, that says more about how vulnerable Toney was, he could look good against certain fighters and got found out by others. This shouldn't detract from Jones or other fighters who beat a prime Toney - it's a great win for those guys


Quote:
What was Calzaghe doing when he was 25? or in his 27th fight?

In Joes 27th fight he was beating Rick Friggin Thornberry

When he was 25 he was still fighting the likes of Luciano Torres

True, Jones was a phenom, at age 25 he had the boxing mind and IQ of an experienced veteran. Just a special talent.

Though you have to agree that Calzaghe had great longevity, beat Eubank at age 25 and Hopkins at age 36, two top champions in fights over 11 years apart.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:08 PM   #293
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Nobody is arguing with Bat regarding Roy's resume. I agree with him.

The argument is, not all of the 13 fighters from his list, were more deserving of a fight.
Show me the list
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:13 PM   #294
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by knockout artist View Post
Agreed, Toney was always struggling with weight and so on, it's excuses excuses.

Toney loses to Tiberi, and his team come out with excuses about being weight weakened.

Toney loses to Jones, and his team come out with excuses about weight.

Toney loses to Thadzi and his team come out with excuses about weight.

The truth is, Toney lost these fights because he was second best to the guys he fought, that says more about how vulnerable Toney was, he could look good against certain fighters and got found out by others. This shouldn't detract from Jones or other fighters who beat a prime Toney - it's a great win for those guys





True, Jones was a phenom, at age 25 he had the boxing mind and IQ of an experienced veteran. Just a special talent.

Though you have to agree that Calzaghe had great longevity, beat Eubank at age 25 and Hopkins at age 36, two top champions in fights over 11 years apart.
Id hate for it to come across like I dislike Calzaghe. He was a very good fighter,and deserves the accolades he got. He spent a lot of his career cocooned away in Britain fighting very average fighters, but he has good wins too and went his whole career undefeated.

Its the blind illogical hate some on this site have for Jones,who anyone who has boxed will tell you in one of the greats.

Just listen to Nigel Benn talking about him.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:14 PM   #295
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey View Post
Show me the list
Post number 242, that includes the stats.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:19 PM   #296
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by irishny View Post
Id hate for it to come across like I dislike Calzaghe. He was a very good fighter,and deserves the accolades he got. He spent a lot of his career cocooned away in Britain fighting very average fighters, but he has good wins too and went his whole career undefeated.

Its the blind illogical hate some on this site have for Jones,who anyone who has boxed will tell you in one of the greats.

Just listen to Nigel Benn talking about him.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Yeah I've seen that interview before, if you listen to Eubank, Calzaghe or Benn talk about Jones they're always full of respect, he was a great fighter. Most top fighters get illogical hate on this site, just click on any thread about Mayweather, Pacquiao or the Klitschkos - I remember dinovelvet making a thread about how Wladimir Klitschko would get KO'd in one round by Mike Tyson
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:22 PM   #297
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by knockout artist View Post
Agreed, Toney was always struggling with weight and so on, it's excuses excuses.

Toney loses to Tiberi, and his team come out with excuses about being weight weakened.

Toney loses to Jones, and his team come out with excuses about weight.

Toney loses to Thadzi and his team come out with excuses about weight.

The truth is, Toney lost these fights because he was second best to the guys he fought, that says more about how vulnerable Toney was, he could look good against certain fighters and got found out by others. This shouldn't detract from Jones or other fighters who beat a prime Toney - it's a great win for those guys






True, Jones was a phenom, at age 25 he had the boxing mind and IQ of an experienced veteran. Just a special talent.

Though you have to agree that Calzaghe had great longevity, beat Eubank at age 25 and Hopkins at age 36, two top champions in fights over 11 years apart.
Love the Toney part. You almost downgrade him to a bum but then you remember that he is Jones best win so you go damage control
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:25 PM   #298
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishny View Post
Ah the old "Toney was weight drained" excuse.

One of the great crutches for illogical haters of Roy to lean on.

Was Toney coming down in weight? NO
did Toney fight at SMW again? Why not
Quote:
In fact he had been champ at 160 only 2 years previously.
I schooled you on this before. Do you think when Floyd went to WW, he could get back to LW where he had been around 2 years previously?
Quote:
The fact that he went on to be a fat slob and balloon up in weight later in his career does not mean he was "weight drained" against Jones.
That doesnt, but the fact he never fought at SMW again, and admitted his struggles and often fought well outside of SMW on a regular basis points to trouble making weight
Quote:
I love the way people talok about opinion as facts!
So do I. I find that amusing
Quote:
How about the fact that he came into the ring around 10lbs heavier than Jones? I dont suppose that wouldn't have given him any advantage would it??
Depends how well he made the weight I suppose. He could have been sluggish if he had weight making problems
Quote:
I think its because a prime James Toney is individually a better win for Jones than ANYTHING Calzaghe ever did at 168,that maybe upsets some people on here. Im only guessing.
Really? How was Toney a better win than many of Calzaghes at SMW?
look at the level Toney was fighting at, when SMW champ

1993 he wins the title from iran barkley a fighter who years earlier was blown away by nigel benn in 1 round and pummelled to a loss by a shot roberto duran barkley went onto lose 11 out of 25 fights following this fight and never beat anyone who was remotely good in doing so,the guy was so desperate he was even plying his trade as a HW in the late 90's against the likes of berbick and they say this era is a joke

govonor chambers a guy with a career record of 9 wins 7 losses, all 3 fights prior to toney were ko losses!

ricky thomas: won 11 lost 14,the 4 fights he had prior to toney all losses!

glenn thomas:won 29 lost 8, lost to roy jones prior to toney and finished his career with a first round ko loss to jeff lacy.

danny garcia: won 30 lost 22, was coming off losses to chris pyatt (a steve collins victim) lamar parks etc

larry prather: won 19 lost 24,lost his last 5 fights prior to the toney fight even losing to nicky piper

tony thornton: won 37 lost 7,lost to chris eubank a year earlier.

anthony hembrick: won 31 lost 8,lost to maske prior to toney and orlin norris a year earlier.

tim littles: won 27 lost 3,maybe one of his better wins,had fought mainly bums with the exception of a close UD over frankie liles,went onto lose to frankie liles in a 2nd contest following the toney fight.

vinsom durham: won 21 lost 37 enough said.

charles williams: won 37 lost 7 drew 3,lost to maske prior to toney.
(this post was improvised from ESB great Silencer, on one of his great threads)and finally the Jones fight and, That was Jones big SMW victory where Toney was alledgedly weight weakend, other than that Jones didnt do much at SMW.

I consider several of Calzaghes SMW victories better than that, looking at that SMW resume and hearing how Toney was so weakend and never able to fight at SMW again


Quote:
Toney was in his prime,a 2 weight world champion with names like Nunn,McCallum(x2),Reggie Johnson, along with good contenders like Tim Littles, Iran Barkley, already on his resume,and had a record of 44-0-2
Couldnt beat old McCallum at first ask, Johnson was a SD. Then T Littles , look at how Barkley was out in a round to Benn before that.
Kessler was an undefeated unified SMW champ 39-0 who had beaten WBA champ Siaca, 3 time and reigning WBC champ Beyer, Mundine a former SMW champ who became a SMW champ again, Lucas who was a world rated and former SMW champ, Andrade who was undefeated and looked to have KOd Bute years later. Even after Calzaghe, Kessler beat undefeated Sartison who became WBA regular champ, Froch who was undefeated WBC champ and Magee who was WBA regular champ.
Eubank was also a better win than Toney.
Quote:
And Jones beat him when he was 25.

What was Calzaghe doing when he was 25?
Beating Eubank who was a 2 weight champ and with a better SMW resume than Toney by a long way


Quote:
or in his 27th fight?

In Joes 27th fight he was beating Rick Friggin Thornberry
You may not be aware, but Thornberry was a weak showcase defence put on as what was supposed to be part of a double bill with Steve Collins on the undercard to match them later, only for Collins to pull out.
What you dont note is that as a World champ Jones was fighting a 12-7-2 fighter and a 25-11-0 fighter which is far worse, and you forget how as a SMW champ, Jones was fighting a blown up LW.
At Calzaghes time of only having 22 fights and facing Eubank, What was Jones doing in fight 23? Fighting a Eubank victim
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:25 PM   #299
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

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Originally Posted by Leonit View Post
Love the Toney part. You almost downgrade him to a bum but then you remember that he is Jones best win so you go damage control
It would be hard to downgrade a guy who beat McCallum twice and Nunn among others to being a bum
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:28 PM   #300
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Default Re: Discuss fighters Jones Jr ducked in his prime

Has anyone got the video where Collins is in the ring with Jones trying to get Jones to face him and Jones acts like Collins isnt there
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