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Old 12-09-2012, 03:15 PM   #16
RichC
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
A proper periodised strength and conditioning program can make a big difference as shown by Marquez' obvious increase in punching power for this fight. Pacquiao looked good in terms of his boxing but he was clearly outgunned. Note that Ariza claimed Pac hadn't been following his strength program. People are going to call PED's just like when Pacquiao moved up and started proper conditioning but that's because boxing is 'old school' and full of uneducated opinions.
The old 'punchers are born' line should be thrown away, there's no reason not to embrace modern training methods and boxing coaches need to get that through their thick heads.
Strength training can improve punching power to an extent, however in this case, Marquez's (assumed) increased power is probably mainly due to an increase in weight through increased muscle size.

Marquez was much heavier than in previous encounters and carried much less body fat. If Marquez, had the same result at, for example, 140 or below then we would have some "evidence" to back up benefits of a proper strength training program.

I'm not disagreeing with you per se, just wanted to point this out.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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some interesting posts.

but this thread is all based on one fighter winning a fight after changing his traning by basically trining HARDER and doing slightly different exercises.

I will give two examples of a fighter who started training with a S&C coach
and both guys got knocked out in brutal fashion for the first time in their career!

paul williams against sergio martinez 2. im not certain but i think i saw the build up to this fight and paul williams talks about his new training. we know what happened in the fight!

2. MMA- big nog vs cain velasquez.
never had big nog been knocked out before. he starts working with a S&C coach. he gets brutally knocked out in the 1st round!

Guys like edwin valero and joe calzaghe, both had very old school yet intense training regimes. i have NEVER seen any fighter who had their kind of work rate. valero was a superfeather weight/ lightweight who punched like a middleweight. both had granite chins.
That was going to be my Point
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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a proper periodised strength and conditioning program can make a big difference for a 39yr old

as shown by marquez' obvious increase in punching power for this fight. Jmm always had power, the difference in this case, was that jmm was on a misssion, determined that he was not going to be robbed again, of course to make your point you will **** on that. Maybe you should ck out hbo's 24/7, and see for yourself the different mindset jmm had for this fight. Now to address your claim that his s&c training increased his punching power, i guess you also believed jmm drank his own ****. I dont know where you are from but here's what you do take the weakest puncher, you know and you or an s&c guy change him into a dynamite puncher like jmm, cos if thats the case why are we putting up with guys that cant punch, why make claims that cant be backed up, power is natural and you are born with it, yes there are ways you can increase power through proper leverage and punch placement, but you could never make a powder puff puncher into a tyson. Jmm ko'd quite a few guys as his record indicates.
Pacquiao looked good in terms of his boxing but he was clearly outgunned. Note that ariza claimed pac hadn't been following his strength program. Ariza is a joke, this is what s&c guys do, "ya see cos i wasnt training he got ktfo
people are going to call ped's just like when pacquiao moved up and started proper conditioning but that's because boxing is 'old school' and full of uneducated opinions everybody is full of uneducated opinions as are yours.
The old 'punchers are born' line should be thrown away, why its true, and without the aid of s&c guys or modern training methods there's no reason not to embrace modern training methods i agree, whatever a wise and knowledgable boxing coach can use to better his fighters chances in a fight and s&c guys need to get that through their thick heads.
see no cartoons, no name calling now lets see what comes back. My prediction is that you will come back with cartoons, name calling and pointing how stupid my remarks are. A true boxing coach will understand what i have written, as the saying goes the ***** in your court now.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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ive always believed that you could be made a puncher from the right program but ive been scared to even say that because of ridecule from other posters. Good form is obviosly the first most important thing but power comes from the strength and weight of the body? correct me if im wrong
If you go into any gym be it MMA, or a boxing gym, there are some guys in there that you can tell right away that they have what they call heavyhands.
Chuck Lidell a terrific natural puncher had bad punching form, but he still got the job done. You are right about having the proper forms, also punch placement, and leverage.
If you want to increase your power, work on the mechanic's of proper form and placement of your shots. There is no magic formula that will turn a non puncher into a puncher, if anyone tells you that head for the exit, before he gives you a contract to sign for 2yrs, obligating you to pay high gym dues. Power does not come from only from the strength and weight of the body.
Work on your proper punch mechanic's, ck out this vid of a coach illustrating the proper punch techniques and putting your body behind the shot.. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
The trainer in this clip trained JMM.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Technique and balance are the most important things but if all the links of the chain (the muscles and tendons) are stronger and have the correct properties for the movement of a punch then power will be improved. Muscles contract with more force and tendons recoil at greater speeds after periodised strength training.
A tendon is like a rubber band, Your brain tells your muscles to contract and your muscles then perform work on the tendon. If the tendon is loose (compliant) then it takes longer to take up the slack and recoil. What that means is that there is a delay between your brain telling you to do something and you actually doing it. That's called the electromechanical delay.
Heavy weight training makes the tendons stiffer so there is less time between a decision and movement. A stiffer or thicker elastic band also recoils with more force if it's stretched the same distance as a thinner or more compliant tendon.
So your movements are quicker and more forceful, even though lifting a heavy weight slowly isn't sports specific to boxing. Heavy weights also help you to recruit more muscle and prevent inhibition of force from the neuromuscular system.When you're stronger it improves your fine motor movements and skill learning as well as less nervous system resources are needed to perform the movement.
It's important that it's part of a periodised program though, you can't perform heavy weight training right up to the day of a fight. When tendons are stretched you lose energy through heat loss. To make your tendons more efficient and lower hysteresis (heat loss) then plyometric training needs to be incorporated. After heavy weight training plyometrics are more effective as your ceiling is higher for power production. Recovery is very important and less is more when developing strength and power.
The heavier you are the stiffer your tendons tend to be (Women have compliant tendons), transferring the weight through the kinetic chain effectively while maintaining balance makes a big difference as well so that's why the heavier the person the harder they'll tend to punch.
I think it's particularly important for lighter fighters to lift heavy weights, training for strength (not hypertrophy).
If anybody tells you that punchers are born then it's they who should be ridiculed. Most people don't even know that slow twitch fibres can be trained into fast twitch fibres, for a long time people only thought that fast twitch could be converted to slow twitch. Everything is trainable, what you do alters your genetic expression and neuromuscular recruitment capabilities.
Boxing is in the dark ages, you can see in life that when people don't understand something they ascribe it to god/the supernatural/they were born like that and choose tradition (something that isn't challenging or scary). That's a lazy defeatist attitude that's still prevalent in the boxing game. Nothing is just because. /endrant
Typical textbook mumble jumbo, he is basically telling you that S&C is the answer and that boxing coaches live in the dark ages. See how simple that was without much self serving lecture on the evils of Boxing coaches and their beliefs. Boxing coaches have done alright with not knowing what the heck you are talking about, and FYI, they can care less, a boxing coach knows enough about getting a guy ready to fight conditioning-wise and are wise enough to bring in a conditioner if needed.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:46 PM   #21
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Typical textbook mumble jumbo.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Typical textbook mumble jumbo
-in another words :I dont know what the hell is dealth with talking about,and i dont care to read a book cause im stuck in 1967.
Im sure that Freddie Roach is gonna care about s&c if Manny will fight again.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Originally Posted by Big N Bad View Post
some interesting posts.

but this thread is all based on one fighter winning a fight after changing his traning by basically trining HARDER and doing slightly different exercises.

I will give two examples of a fighter who started training with a S&C coach
and both guys got knocked out in brutal fashion for the first time in their career!

paul williams against sergio martinez 2. im not certain but i think i saw the build up to this fight and paul williams talks about his new training. we know what happened in the fight!

2. MMA- big nog vs cain velasquez.
never had big nog been knocked out before. he starts working with a S&C coach. he gets brutally knocked out in the 1st round!

Guys like edwin valero and joe calzaghe, both had very old school yet intense training regimes. i have NEVER seen any fighter who had their kind of work rate. valero was a superfeather weight/ lightweight who punched like a middleweight. both had granite chins.
Nogueira got knocked out against Frank Mir as well before that so you fail,and Cain has been working with S&C coach since the start of his career.So that kinda goes both ways,almost every mma fighter fighting on a high level has a S&C coach.
Ben Henderson vs Nate Diaz-Diaz get demolished in 5 rounds and doesnt have a s&c coach,ben has one.
I mean i can go with this is further but its really ****ing stupid.What does it prove?And i really dont wont to comment on calzaghe and valero.
Dealth with only wanted to state what a good S&C programe can do to a fighter.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Strength and conditioning is important in boxing only a re****ed would disagree.
I agree with the statement punchers are born and not made aswell. My view is that a good strength and conditioning routine will help you reach your natural potential in regards to how hard you hit, in the same way a sprint coach can't create the next usain bolt from scratch no matter how good his training methods are. He can only maximise that person to reaching their natural potential.

What I saw last night was how Marquez applied what he worked on during training camp technique wise.
I give full props for him and his team being clever and picking up proper conditioning routines to help Marquez reach a certain physical level.
Again, being properly conditioned is only part of the pie. It's not like Marquez had not hurt Pacquiao in the past. His approach was very risky this time around, but his plan, which was put together with help of the right conditioning, was what toppled Manny last night.
Hats off to Marquez
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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What I saw last night was how Marquez applied what he worked on during training camp technique wise.
I give full props for him and his team being clever and picking up proper conditioning routines to help Marquez reach a certain physical level.
Again, being properly conditioned is only part of the pie. It's not like Marquez had not hurt Pacquiao in the past. His approach was very risky this time around, but his plan, which was put together with help of the right conditioning, was what toppled Manny last night.
Hats off to Marquez
Well said, S&C guys seem to think that they are the whole pie that total credit should be theirs. IF YOUR GUY CANT FIGHT< NO MATTER WHAT MUSCLE TWITCH FIBER, OSCILLATION OF THE FRAMUS AND ALL THE MODERN SCIENCE YOU BRING IN< IT WONT HELP.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Well said, S&C guys seem to think that they are the whole pie that total credit should be theirs. IF YOUR GUY CANT FIGHT< NO MATTER WHAT MUSCLE TWITCH FIBER, OSCILLATION OF THE FRAMUS AND ALL THE MODERN SCIENCE YOU BRING IN< IT WONT HELP.
Who said otherwise?

It makes no sense why you're carrying this on. You already admitted having a knowledgeable S&C coach can be a valuable asset to any team, yet you still bad mouth them all for no good reason.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:10 PM   #27
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Who said otherwise?

It makes no sense why you're carrying this on. You already admitted having a knowledgeable S&C coach can be a valuable asset to any team, yet you still bad mouth them all for no good reason.

Am I the only one commenting on this thread, or do you like me, you seem to be following me around, makes you wonder hmmmmm....
I guess you must've missed the first post on this thread, I direct you there and have you figure out why. You must be a yapper trying to draw me into your fecal matter.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:15 PM   #28
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

Without reading the thread and without trying to rain on anybody's science-*****....

You punch a mother****er in the face like that while he's leaping toward you and he's taking a nap. Marquez didn't overpower Pac in any way, he used his exceptional skills, timing, and foreknowledge of Pacquiao to set up some great shots.

The fact that Marquez can still use those skills at 39 is a testament to conditioning, but that win had little to do with Marquez' conditioning.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:17 PM   #29
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Am I the only one commenting on this thread, or do you like me, you seem to be following me around, makes you wonder hmmmmm....
No. You said something incorrect, I responded...

Quote:
I guess you must've missed the first post on this thread, I direct you there and have you figure out why. You must be a yapper trying to draw me into your fecal matter.
It makes no difference what another post said. In your post you said "S&C guys seem to think that they are the whole pie that total credit should be theirs" which is yet another one of your generalizations which is incorrect.

Feel free to play the victim and try and turn my post into some imaginary attack on you, it wasn't, I pointed out where you were wrong, but I'm not surprised as what you're claiming doesn't hold water.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Marquez-Pac 4 shows the importance of strength and conditioning

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Originally Posted by Big N Bad View Post
some interesting posts.

but this thread is all based on one fighter winning a fight after changing his traning by basically trining HARDER and doing slightly different exercises.

I will give two examples of a fighter who started training with a S&C coach
and both guys got knocked out in brutal fashion for the first time in their career!

paul williams against sergio martinez 2. im not certain but i think i saw the build up to this fight and paul williams talks about his new training. we know what happened in the fight!

2. MMA- big nog vs cain velasquez.
never had big nog been knocked out before. he starts working with a S&C coach. he gets brutally knocked out in the 1st round!

Guys like edwin valero and joe calzaghe, both had very old school yet intense training regimes. i have NEVER seen any fighter who had their kind of work rate. valero was a superfeather weight/ lightweight who punched like a middleweight. both had granite chins.
Joe calzaghe a granite chin?
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