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Old 02-06-2008, 06:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89

I think that Ray had the tools to defeat Greb -the style that worked best with him was based around these:
1. body punching
2. Make him miss and capitalize on that
3. nail him with straight rights
Make him miss? Robinson would have to be all offense, his style would not be to play a defensive fight or fight off the backfoot, as Greb would swarm and smother Robinson, and his offense would be less effective going backward and getting smothered. Body punching is perhaps a good strategy against Greb or a fighter of that nature, so that is a good tactic, but the "make him miss and capitalize on that" bit is a lot easier said than done, considering how active and fast Greb was. I don't think it would play much into Robinson's game at all, which is why I think he could be overwhelmed at times, due to Greb's speed, workrate, and durability. Robinson has the power, and the ability to hurt him to the body, but a strong pressure fighter has been known to give Robinson a lot of trouble as well.

I also don't get the deal with straight rights affecting Greb, perhaps you know more about that than I. Where do you get this info from?

Overall, I think Greb's speed and workrate do better to offset Robinson than Robinson's body punching does to offset Greb. Robinson is obviously capable of winning, he's pretty much the king of rematches, but I'd favor Greb.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Ray was a hair under 6 feet. Greb was 5'8 and not considered a big MW.

I am not so sure that the 1950 SRR couldn't do this. Greb was hell to fight but Ray could also get down and dirty too -he was a fierce competitor, but also a sociopathic warrior which even the great Tunney was not. Ray could be viciously explosive in there --and I am not sure that his multi-faceted, fundamentally sound, and more efficient offense wouldn't force Greb to pause.

Benny Leonard, Tunney, and Loughren saw that body punching slowed Greb up. Tunney and Tommy demonstrated it. I would wager that Ray's work to the body would make a difference. I would also consider that straight right of Robinson's... Greb could be susceptible to straight rights.

I think that Ray had the tools to defeat Greb -the style that worked best with him was based around these:
1. body punching
2. Make him miss and capitalize on that
3. nail him with straight rights

I think Robinson could be counted on to do those things naturally... and particular at age 29, not 36 (which is about how old he was when he met Fullmer).

You also have to consider that Greb would not be allowed to use his usual dirty tactics -and Greb was not quite as formidable without his head.

I'm favoring Robinson, slightly.
Greb actually was considered a big middleweight considering he fought most of his bouts above the MW limit and his prime weight was about 163 pounds in an era when you weighed in often times at ringside. Thats a big middleweight. For years nobody believed he could make the middleweight limit which is why Johnny Wilson gave him a title shot after ducking him for several years.

So Tommy and Gene demonstrated that bodypunching stopped Greb's effectiveness? Do tell. Greb and Gene were even up in their series. The first for Greb, the second being a robbery for Gene which Greb should have won. The third being for Gene, the fourth being for Greb and the fifth being for Gene. As for Tommy Greb beat him everytime except for once in a bad decision and it wasnt Tommys bodypunching that turned the trick but Greb's rough fighting that turned the ref against him.

If Greb wasnt so effective without his head how did he fight 300 fights against the best competition across four weight classes without hardly ever losing a fight over 13 years? He only started fighting dirty when his vision became so impared that he was willing to do anything to continue. Its a testament to his ability that his last fight was for a title against the stiffest of competition. Besides, the argument is that Ray was a great middleweight for winning the title five times. However, he also had to lose it five times and was always given problems by larger, stronger men as Greb was.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Make him miss? Robinson would have to be all offense, his style would not be to play a defensive fight or fight off the backfoot, as Greb would swarm and smother Robinson, and his offense would be less effective going backward and getting smothered. Body punching is perhaps a good strategy against Greb or a fighter of that nature, so that is a good tactic, but the "make him miss and capitalize on that" bit is a lot easier said than done, considering how active and fast Greb was.
...
Body punching slowed him down. Greb's style has been described as a windmill and hornet's nest. But that devil-may-care style has windows. Whenever you are fighting a guy who has incredible stamina, as Greb did -almost naturally- you go to the body. When you fight a guy who is elusive, and I think that Greb was (he twisted his hips to maximize torque and would therefore be coming at different angles), you go to the body because the torso ain't moving and you can nail him coming in. This slows him down.

Right hands, if you are fast enough, are better than a jab to catch a guy coming in, and Greb was coming in continuously. That's just physics. Mike O'Dowd fought out of Minnesota and managed to stop Greb cold with straight rights throughout their fight. He was exceptional in defense and there is a clip of him on youtube against Mike Gibbons. Greb, to my knowledge, never took a rematch.

Gibbons beat him handily in one of their bouts by making him miss and countering with fast shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
I don't think it would play much into Robinson's game at all, which is why I think he could be overwhelmed at times, due to Greb's speed, workrate, and durability. Robinson has the power, and the ability to hurt him to the body, but a strong pressure fighter has been known to give Robinson a lot of trouble as well.
Strong pressure fighters did give SRR problems, usually when he was in his mid 30s. LaMotta did during his better years, but LaMotta was a different fighter than Greb. LaMotta was not giving you as many windows because his game was formed around his durability. Greb's game was formed around intensity... Pryor was closer to his style than either LaMotta, Basilio, or Fullmer.

Robinson was faster than Greb. In terms of one punch KO power, I'd give him the edge their too. Would he get overwhelmed at times? Yes indeed, but I trust that he would be prepared and would also adjust as the situation called for it. Greb's incredible record was built on guys without the requisite speed, resilience, adaptability, and thump in their shots --guys who got overwhelmed by his shock and awe campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Overall, I think Greb's speed and workrate do better to offset Robinson than Robinson's body punching does to offset Greb. Robinson is obviously capable of winning, he's pretty much the king of rematches, but I'd favor Greb.
Robinson became "the king of rematches" later in his career, when he lost a step; and it is safe to say that he was faster than Greb, a better technician, and as much of a warrior. Greb's stamina and workrate are ridiculous and if he beats Sugar, that would be why!

Last edited by Stonehands89; 02-07-2008 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:46 PM   #19
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by klompton
Greb actually was considered a big middleweight considering he fought most of his bouts above the MW limit and his prime weight was about 163 pounds in an era when you weighed in often times at ringside. Thats a big middleweight. For years nobody believed he could make the middleweight limit which is why Johnny Wilson gave him a title shot after ducking him for several years.
I'm not talking about 'for that time', I'm talking about 'for all time'. Iran Barkely was a big MW. Greb wasn't. He may have been stronger than Robinson, but he he was a full 3 or 4 inches shorter and had a shorter reach. Robinson was not a "physical" fighter anyway.

So, no. Greb cannot be rightly considered a big MW, unless you are talking about for his time. Remember that Firpo, at 6'2, was considered a giant. He was... for the 1920s when the average height of a man was 5'7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton
So Tommy and Gene demonstrated that bodypunching stopped Greb's effectiveness? Do tell. Greb and Gene were even up in their series. The first for Greb, the second being a robbery for Gene which Greb should have won. The third being for Gene, the fourth being for Greb and the fifth being for Gene. As for Tommy Greb beat him everytime except for once in a bad decision and it wasnt Tommys bodypunching that turned the trick but Greb's rough fighting that turned the ref against him.
You state these as facts. They are not. What they are is hearsay.

Anyway, the fourth was reported as a draw -that's a fact.

My opinion, from what I know about those fights with Tunney and Loughren and from what I know about how to deal with styles in the ring, body punching could have the desired effect on the Windmill. Benny Leonard did recommend to Tunney that he fight Greb differently and attack the body more. He did and began to do a helluva lot better than he did the first time out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton
If Greb wasnt so effective without his head how did he fight 300 fights against the best competition across four weight classes without hardly ever losing a fight over 13 years? He only started fighting dirty when his vision became so impared that he was willing to do anything to continue. Its a testament to his ability that his last fight was for a title against the stiffest of competition.
Greb, according to more than one ringside observer, headbutted Tunney in the opening seconds of their first bout and broke his nose in two places. He fought a dirty fight from then on and did so with impunity. He butted, held and hit, cuffed Tunney, etc., etc.

As per your comment. I wrote that "Greb wasn't quite so formidable without his head." That's a fact, and your celebration of his career is fine but irrelevant to that fact. I am a big fan of Greb and list him in the top 5 ever... which is saying something because I don't normally do that for guys I can't see and analyze myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton
Besides, the argument is that Ray was a great middleweight for winning the title five times. However, he also had to lose it five times and was always given problems by larger, stronger men as Greb was.
That's not my argument. And the fact is, Ray started losing in his mid 30s.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Make him miss? Robinson would have to be all offense, his style would not be to play a defensive fight or fight off the backfoot, as Greb would swarm and smother Robinson, and his offense would be less effective going backward and getting smothered. Body punching is perhaps a good strategy against Greb or a fighter of that nature, so that is a good tactic, but the "make him miss and capitalize on that" bit is a lot easier said than done, considering how active and fast Greb was. I don't think it would play much into Robinson's game at all, which is why I think he could be overwhelmed at times, due to Greb's speed, workrate, and durability. Robinson has the power, and the ability to hurt him to the body, but a strong pressure fighter has been known to give Robinson a lot of trouble as well.

I also don't get the deal with straight rights affecting Greb, perhaps you know more about that than I. Where do you get this info from?

Overall, I think Greb's speed and workrate do better to offset Robinson than Robinson's body punching does to offset Greb. Robinson is obviously capable of winning, he's pretty much the king of rematches, but I'd favor Greb.
Hope you don't mind me answering this...
First off this is all specualtion re Greb ( I just do not know what he was capable of...and neither do you)...I just do not know how fast he was...
I've seen film of the following Greb opponents Joe Chip, Mickey Walker, Tommy Loughran, Kid Norfolk, Tommy Gibbons and Gene Tunney...
Walker and Norfolk were aggressive fighters...Norfolk employs a leaping attack jumping in with punches, He looks strong and he doesn't take a backward step against Bill Tate (a heavyweight)...and Walker looks like a modern day aggressive fighter...Loughran,Tunney and Gibbons were of coarse, master boxers. I'm assuming in this fight Greb would aggressively engage the taller, albeit smaller fighter in Robinson...I know the dynamics of each and every fight are different, there are so many variables...Loughran,Tunney, and Gibbons were much larger and stronger men than Robinson, and as light heavys they would hit harder than Robinson as well (Tunney and Gibbons anyway)...But this contest is at middleweight, not light heavy...and Robinson still has excellent power and delivery at 160 lbs.
In the reports, Norfolk and Greb fought two vicious give and take battles...and Walker was able to score with his blows as well against Greb...The key is "give and take" battles...My point is that Ray Robinson is a much more complete offensive fighter than these fighters were...and at 160 lbs, Robinson had the ability to hurt anyone...I do not think Robinson is capable of kayoing Greb...not at all. But I think he can manage to give Greb pause due to his power and his speed...If Greb can be caught by those fighters...SRR will definitely find Greb with his punches...Sugar Ray is a much better combination puncher than any of the fighters I viewed...it is not even close judging from what I've seen...IMO.
Ray Robinson had the ability to box going backwards...and he could land with power going backwards...Greb's speed, unorthadoxy, roughness and strength are a difficult package to deal with...but Robinson has seen aggressive fighters before and has been successful. Although in fairness, I do not think anyone compares stylistically to Harry Greb...
As fast as Greb is reported to be, I cannot see his hand/foot speed being on equal par with Robinson's...Maybe it is close, but i think Robinson's speed would be superior...Robinson would time Greb with straight rights and uppercuts/hooks to the body during Greb's charges...Robinson wouldn't have to be 'all offense'...he could rely on his jab and footwork...and he would be finding Greb with alot more regularity than any of the opponents I listed...and at 160 lbs, all of Ray's opponents felt his power...
Greb could very possibly win this fight...his record backs this up... boxing historians back this up...
Robinson could very possibly win this fight...His record backs this assessment up...and boxing historians are pretty keen on Ray Robinson as well.
I lean slightly towards Ray Robinson.
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Old 02-06-2008, 08:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

look at their videos....

I think Robinson would humiliate Greb
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Old 02-06-2008, 08:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Illmatic
look at their videos....

I think Robinson would humiliate Greb
There are no Greb fights available. And your statement falls flat... take a look at Greb's record, some of the names on that record, look at their records, and then look at the weight differentials.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by dpw417
Hope you don't mind me answering this...
First off this is all specualtion re Greb ( I just do not know what he was capable of...and neither do you)...I just do not know how fast he was...
I've seen film of the following Greb opponents Joe Chip, Mickey Walker, Tommy Loughran, Kid Norfolk, Tommy Gibbons and Gene Tunney...
Walker and Norfolk were aggressive fighters...Norfolk employs a leaping attack jumping in with punches, He looks strong and he doesn't take a backward step against Bill Tate (a heavyweight)...and Walker looks like a modern day aggressive fighter...Loughran,Tunney and Gibbons were of coarse, master boxers. I'm assuming in this fight Greb would aggressively engage the taller, albeit smaller fighter in Robinson...I know the dynamics of each and every fight are different, there are so many variables...Loughran,Tunney, and Gibbons were much larger and stronger men than Robinson, and as light heavys they would hit harder than Robinson as well (Tunney and Gibbons anyway)...But this contest is at middleweight, not light heavy...and Robinson still has excellent power and delivery at 160 lbs.
In the reports, Norfolk and Greb fought two vicious give and take battles...and Walker was able to score with his blows as well against Greb...The key is "give and take" battles...My point is that Ray Robinson is a much more complete offensive fighter than these fighters were...and at 160 lbs, Robinson had the ability to hurt anyone...I do not think Robinson is capable of kayoing Greb...not at all. But I think he can manage to give Greb pause due to his power and his speed...If Greb can be caught by those fighters...SRR will definitely find Greb with his punches...Sugar Ray is a much better combination puncher than any of the fighters I viewed...it is not even close judging from what I've seen...IMO.
Ray Robinson had the ability to box going backwards...and he could land with power going backwards...Greb's speed, unorthadoxy, roughness and strength are a difficult package to deal with...but Robinson has seen aggressive fighters before and has been successful. Although in fairness, I do not think anyone compares stylistically to Harry Greb...
As fast as Greb is reported to be, I cannot see his hand/foot speed being on equal par with Robinson's...Maybe it is close, but i think Robinson's speed would be superior...Robinson would time Greb with straight rights and uppercuts/hooks to the body during Greb's charges...Robinson wouldn't have to be 'all offense'...he could rely on his jab and footwork...and he would be finding Greb with alot more regularity than any of the opponents I listed...and at 160 lbs, all of Ray's opponents felt his power...
Greb could very possibly win this fight...his record backs this up... boxing historians back this up...
Robinson could very possibly win this fight...His record backs this assessment up...and boxing historians are pretty keen on Ray Robinson as well.
I lean slightly towards Ray Robinson.
Only thing I must comment on is that Greb was nowhere near his prime for the Norfolk fights, and according to reports, he "beat Walker from pillar to post".
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Only thing I must comment on is that Greb was nowhere near his prime for the Norfolk fights, and according to reports, he "beat Walker from pillar to post".
Fair enough...but Robinson's absolute prime was welterweight too! I've had the privilage of writing with a gentleman who saw Robinson in action, and he stated that Robinson was much better at welter, it was no comparison.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by dpw417
Fair enough...but Robinson's absolute prime was welterweight too! I've had the privilage of writing with a gentleman who saw Robinson in action, and he stated that Robinson was much better at welter, it was no comparison.
True, but that doesn't really help him at MW against a prime Greb.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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True, but that doesn't really help him at MW against a prime Greb.
IMO...Yes. I think it would.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by dpw417
IMO...Yes. I think it would.
How good Robinson was in his prime at WW helps him at MW where he was supposedly nowhere near as good against a prime Greb? Forgive me if I don't follow.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:35 PM   #28
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
How good Robinson was in his prime at WW helps him at MW where he was supposedly nowhere near as good against a prime Greb? Forgive me if I don't follow.
I was just saying that reference to your point (valid point) that Greb was past his best against Norfolk. Robinson was still a great at middleweight, but he was more dynamic at welter...but as you know, he regularly fought middleweights as a welterweight.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:55 AM   #29
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Body punching slowed him down. Greb's style has been described as a windmill and hornet's nest. But that devil-may-care style has windows. Whenever you are fighting a guy who has incredible stamina, as Greb did -almost naturally- you go to the body. When you fight a guy who is elusive, and I think that Greb was (he twisted his hips to maximize torque and would therefore be coming at different angles), you go to the body because the torso ain't moving and you can nail him coming in. This slows him down.

Right hands, if you are fast enough, are better than a jab to catch a guy coming in, and Greb was coming in continuously. That's just physics. Mike O'Dowd fought out of Minnesota and managed to stop Greb cold with straight rights throughout their fight. He was exceptional in defense and there is a clip of him on youtube against Mike Gibbons. Greb, to my knowledge, never took a rematch.

Gibbons beat him handily in one of their bouts by making him miss and countering with fast shots.


Strong pressure fighters did give Greb problems, usually when he was in his mid 30s. LaMotta did during his better years, but LaMotta was a different fighter than Greb. LaMotta was not giving you as many windows because his game was formed around his durability. Greb's game was formed around intensity... Pryor was closer to his style than either LaMotta, Basilio, or Fullmer.

Robinson was faster than Greb. In terms of one punch KO power, I'd give him the edge their too. Would he get overwhelmed at times? Yes indeed, but I trust that he would be prepared and would also adjust as the situation called for it. Greb's incredible record was built on guys without the requisite speed, resilience, adaptability, and thump in their shots --guys who got overwhelmed by his shock and awe campaign.


Robinson became "the king of rematches" later in his career, when he lost a step; and it is safe to say that he was faster than Greb, a better technician, and as much of a warrior. Greb's stamina and workrate are ridiculous and if he beats Sugar, that would be why!
Your talking about light heavyweights slowing down a guy (who beat them anyway) with body punches. How does that equate to Robinson who couldnt even defeat a very featherfisted light heavyweight in Maxim. One argument does not prove the other. Its a silly analogy.

As for the Gibbons and O'Dowd: Gibbons beat Greb once, yes in early 1917 when Greb was still developing and Gibbons was in his prime. I thought we were arguing prime vs prime here? The newspaper accounts of Greb-O'Dowd are split straight down the middle. Three for Greb and three for O'Dowd. Those are O'Dowds hometown papers and the fight was on O'Dowds home turf. Greb was so anxious to make weight and win the title that he melted down to 155 pounds in a turkish bath the night before the fight and still fought even with O'Dowd. Again, this was prior to Greb's prime. A rematch never happened because right after the fight O'Dowd went into the military and didnt get out until the middle of 1919. Greb also entered the military. The war got in the way. After the war Greb pursued a match with O'Dowd but O'Dowd always wanted to too much money, pricing himself out of the fight to protect his title. In the summer of 1920 Pittsburgh promoters offered O'Dowd a match with Greb for the title and gave him the largest gaurentee ever granted a fighter in the history of that city to that point. The match was made but O'Dowd went to Boston and lost a tuneup and the title to Johnny Wilson. After that Greb had no interest in fighting O'Dowd as he was after the title. Wilson, who was a terrific body puncher, much better at body punching than Loughran who you use as an example never slowed Greb down and that was after Greb was beginning to fade a bit and blind in one eye. Wilson ducked Greb for several years to stave off the inevitable beating he recieved.

You totally misunderstand Greb and his style. It was intensity to be sure but the guy was blazing fast and account of his fights are numerous where opponents failed to land more than a handful of blows over the course of 10 or 15 rounds. He wasnt giving anyone openings, they called him a whirling dirvish because he was leaping in and out flailing about scoring and then bouncing out of danger before an opponent could get shots off. Not because he just stood in front of a guy and took unnecessary punishment. Nobody has 300 fights as successfully as Greb did against that kind of competition and those big guys by getting hit all the time. Thats just silly. To that point I totally disagree that Robinson was faster than Greb. Its debateable but not a definate. and to say Greb never faced any guys who were fast is just silly. Loughran, Tunney, Flowers, Mike Gibbons, Jeff Smith, Maxie Rosenbloom, Augie Ratner, Jimmy Slattery, Chuck Wiggins, Charlie Weinert, Battling Levinsky, Leo Houck, Billy Miske, and Soldier Bartfield where all legendary fast men, many champions, and you can look up their comparitive records with Greb and find out who came out on top in the vast majority of those bouts.

You say Robinson became the king of rematches. Look at Greb's resume over 300 fights and tell me how many of those were rematches and how many he lost? Tell you what, lets be fair about and take Greb's first 200 bouts so the wear and tear is comparable. The bottom line is Greb was a big middleweight who was fast, strong, and had stamina to fight the twentieth round as fast as the first in era before air conditioned arenas against welterweights, middleweights, light heavies, and even the cream of the heavyweight crop. Ray Robinson, for all of his greatness couldnt beat a relatively poor light heavyweight in Joey Maxim in ROBINSONS PRIME. You can spin it anyway you like but Robinson would not bring anything to the table that Greb hadnt seen before and defeated so why should we think he would defeat Greb. Greb had fought bigger taller harder hitting men and won. He fought smaller men just as fast and won. He had faced boxers as skilled, opponents as determined, brawlers as durable. He could box a guy silly from the outside or stay as close as the sweat on a guys body. He was tough and durable and knew how to get dirty if you wanted to take the fight there. Greb just had too much for Robinson.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I'm not talking about 'for that time', I'm talking about 'for all time'. Iran Barkely was a big MW. Greb wasn't. He may have been stronger than Robinson, but he he was a full 3 or 4 inches shorter and had a shorter reach. Robinson was not a "physical" fighter anyway.

So, no. Greb cannot be rightly considered a big MW, unless you are talking about for his time. Remember that Firpo, at 6'2, was considered a giant. He was... for the 1920s when the average height of a man was 5'7.


You state these as facts. They are not. What they are is hearsay.

Anyway, the fourth was reported as a draw -that's a fact.

My opinion, from what I know about those fights with Tunney and Loughren and from what I know about how to deal with styles in the ring, body punching could have the desired effect on the Windmill. Benny Leonard did recommend to Tunney that he fight Greb differently and attack the body more. He did and began to do a helluva lot better than he did the first time out.


Greb, according to more than one ringside observer, headbutted Tunney in the opening seconds of their first bout and broke his nose in two places. He fought a dirty fight from then on and did so with impunity. He butted, held and hit, cuffed Tunney, etc., etc.

As per your comment. I wrote that "Greb wasn't quite so formidable without his head." That's a fact, and your celebration of his career is fine but irrelevant to that fact. I am a big fan of Greb and list him in the top 5 ever... which is saying something because I don't normally do that for guys I can't see and analyze myself.


That's not my argument. And the fact is, Ray started losing in his mid 30s.
Its not hearsay if an eye witness records his impression of the fight. Its a fact that ONE cleveland newspaper had Greb's fourth bout with Tunney a draw. Its a fact that there three newspapers in Cleveland in 1924 and that two had Greb winning and one had it a draw. If we use the papers as judges (which is exactly what gamblers did and why they were called newspaper decisions) Greb would have been given a majority decision. Sounds like you are picking and choosing the information that best suits your argument, not all of the information available. Or maybe you dont have all the information available in which case you should recuse yourself from this discussion.

It is your opinion about the Loughran and Tunney fights but your opinion is based on a lack of knowledge. Specifically about Loughran who was relatively unsuccessful against Greb (and how that pertains to Robinson I dont know as the guys you are listed are Light heavyweights, not small middleweights). Tunney freely admitted having to pay reporters to have a favorable attitude toward him in their press reports, its no surprise that a minority of reporters, probably on the take, voted for Tunney in the second Greb fight. However the fact is that the overwhelming majority of critics (not just from Greb's hometown) called the fight the worst decision in the history of New York boxing. Many called for there to be an investigation into the decision. William Muldoon chairman of the NYSAC said he felt it was a poor decision but did nothing to reverse it. Gene even admitted in his biography that there was "something" to Greb's cries of "fix" which is why he offered Greb the third fight. So tell me, if Greb should have won the second, and won the fourth, and was only clearly beaten in the fifth meeting when Tunney was a heavyweight how does that support your argument or theory that Robinson would have had success against Greb. Your talking apples and oranges. One of the greatest light heavies cum heavies ever against a middleweight, as opposed to one of the greatest welterweights cum middleweight against a middleweight.

You say that Greb butted Gene and fought a dirty fight, again these are according to papers that felt Gene won. Most of the papers state that it was actually a lead right hand, the first punch of the fight, which broke Tunneys nose and those same papers accuse Tunney of fight every bit as foul as Greb and even constantly exaggerating his claims to the ref in order to get sympathy to stave off an ass kicking in the making. Again you cant cherry pick your sources to support your argument and if you dont have the first hand accounts to state your claims categorically what are you doing making the argument?
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