Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

[Illmatic]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

There are no Greb fights available. And your statement falls flat... take a look at Greb's record, some of the names on that record, look at their records, and then look at the weight differentials.

there are videos of him sparring though, i thought. Not the one where he was really old, but another one in preparation for a fight. He looked terrible, although I do recognize that he had a historic resume. I just think that from their respective videos (even though neither one has videos of their prime), Robinson would capitalize on too many opportunities.

[joe33]

Originally Posted by Illmatic

there are videos of him sparring though, i thought. Not the one where he was really old, but another one in preparation for a fight. He looked terrible, although I do recognize that he had a historic resume. I just think that from their respective videos (even though neither one has videos of their prime), Robinson would capitalize on too many opportunities.

Though the one i saw of him did look poor,how then can you account for him beating so many top men?,was he just "lucky" or something in your eyes??,to be honest the lack of footage means fuck all for me(though how great would it be to see something0,the record is there to see,and thats good enough for me,i mean he near on killed gene tunney in one of there fights,tunney could not move for weeks after,guy was a freak of nature

[klompton]

"there are videos of him sparring though, i thought. Not the one where he was really old, but another one in preparation for a fight."

Film of Greb when he was really old? He died when he was 32 two months after his last fight. The only film of him was taken in 1925 signing contracts for his fight with Mickey Walker and training for that fight. However I dont know why people think they can tell anything about him or his style from that film considering he is just playing around and mugging for the camera. He is sparring with a 50 something philadelphia jack obrien do you really think it was a serious sparring session?

The bottom line is that guys like Mickey Walker, Gene Tunney, and Tommy Loughran remain impressive on film and Greb beat them. He also beat a lot of other guys we have film of. He may have been awkward or unconventional but he made it work to his advantage and left piles of great fighters defeated in his wake and scared a lot more away from fighting him.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by Illmatic

there are videos of him sparring though, i thought. Not the one where he was really old, but another one in preparation for a fight. He looked terrible, although I do recognize that he had a historic resume. I just think that from their respective videos (even though neither one has videos of their prime), Robinson would capitalize on too many opportunities.

Greb died at 32, there is no footage of him when he was "really old". In preparation for a fight, he looked terrible? The shadow-boxing session? Greb was an unorthodox swarmer even for his era, of course he isn't gonna look good shadow-boxing. Watch JC Chavez on the speed bag, he barely knows how to do it, I myself can do far better, what does it prove about an actual fight? Nothing. Greb's style was as a swarmer, he was not known as a puncher, and was known to not set his feet when he punches, because he relied on quantity over quality. So pointing these flaws out on video are useless, considering they were known in his day as well. His style was not only a marvel to us, but to his time as well.

[Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by Russell

Yeah, his records ridiculous, one of the very best.

Even more so considering he was partly blind for a good part of it.

Hilarious that this only goes 1 way in reasoning, the reason being 'wow, Greb was so amazing that even partly blind he was beating good opponents'.

Now, I'm sorry, but no fighter could make it to the top of rankings with only 1 eye or any serious vision problems, so this says PLENTY about the lack of skill and ability in old time boxing and nobody will even touch the subject matter of Greb being blind making a clear statement about that era.

My personal pick -

Robinson KO 1.

[Illmatic]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Greb died at 32, there is no footage of him when he was "really old". In preparation for a fight, he looked terrible? The shadow-boxing session? Greb was an unorthodox swarmer even for his era, of course he isn't gonna look good shadow-boxing. Watch JC Chavez on the speed bag, he barely knows how to do it, I myself can do far better, what does it prove about an actual fight? Nothing. Greb's style was as a swarmer, he was not known as a puncher, and was known to not set his feet when he punches, because he relied on quantity over quality. So pointing these flaws out on video are useless, considering they were known in his day as well. His style was not only a marvel to us, but to his time as well.

Thanks for the input guys, its just hard, when seeing someone with such porous technique, for me to pick them over Robinson who was techniquely flawless, despits great size differential. I mean, Robinson did great against Maxim (if my memory serves me correct), despite a great size differential.

[Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Greb died at 32, there is no footage of him when he was "really old". In preparation for a fight, he looked terrible? The shadow-boxing session? Greb was an unorthodox swarmer even for his era, of course he isn't gonna look good shadow-boxing. Watch JC Chavez on the speed bag, he barely knows how to do it, I myself can do far better, what does it prove about an actual fight? Nothing. Greb's style was as a swarmer, he was not known as a puncher, and was known to not set his feet when he punches, because he relied on quantity over quality. So pointing these flaws out on video are useless, considering they were known in his day as well. His style was not only a marvel to us, but to his time as well.

Most ATG swarmers planted their feet well and utilised great skill in that style, not just flailing their arms with little to no coordination.

Margarito sometimes doesn't set his feet, but most of the time he does. Librado Andrade doesn't set his feet, but unlike Margarito, he oddly has an inhuman chin and good power.

Needless to say, neither of those guys are ATG's and Greb's punching technique in the video is far worse than either of those sloppier, albeit ranked and somewhat effective fighters. So he's got little power, worse punching technique, same defence and same bad footwork habits....

Sound like somebody who's going to beat Robinson? Nah.

Robinson KO 1.

And for the record, Robinson TKO's Margarito also, but loses to Andrade due to size.

[Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by Illmatic

Thanks for the input guys, its just hard, when seeing someone with such porous technique, for me to pick them over Robinson who was techniquely flawless, despits great size differential. I mean, Robinson did great against Maxim (if my memory serves me correct), despite a great size differential.

Robinson technically flawless? Not quite.

Plenty of flaws.

But he was one of the first really fluid looking boxers on film with crisp technique and was the prototype for the modern boxer-puncher that we view today in the vein of the overrated but technically sound ODLH.

Picking Greb over Robinson is the pinnacle of nostalgic foolishness.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Illmatic

Thanks for the input guys, its just hard, when seeing someone with such porous technique, for me to pick them over Robinson who was techniquely flawless,

You havnt seen any of his technique.

All you have seen is him shadow boxing and sparing with a 60 year old former champion.

That is to sy nothing that will tell you much about his style at all.

[Amsterdam]

I don't understand how some guys like Greb have people who really claim to be a 'huge fan' of him when all they can do is look at his paper resume, watch that joke of a sparring video and then read reports and listen to legend about him.

If he was a philosopher Greb, then we would have merit on being fans, because that's all written and told.

With fighters, kind of hard to gauge and enjoy a fighter if there are no fights to even watch and observe. It's an interesting little subject.

[Amsterdam]

You havnt seen any of his technique you fool.

Neither have you cupcake.

All you have seen is him shadow boxing and sparing with a 60 year old former champion.

And both of them were incompetent at what we call 'boxing' as a martial art.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Amsterdam

Neither have you cupcake.

I am not the person basing his case on these clips of Greb shaddow boxing.

I am basing my case on his resume and footage of his opponents which I have seen.

And both of them were incompetent at what we call 'boxing' as a martial art.

How can you guage sombodys competence as a boxer from a clip of them shaddow boxing?

How can you asses a fighter based on a clip of him sparring with a 60 year old man. It would be like drawing your impresions of Wlad Klitschko from a clip of him sparring with the Joe Frazier of today.

I am sure it would be verry convenient if you could somehow undermine Grebs unparalleled record based on these clips. I mean its not as if you could make a sensible case for your pet fighters over him based on their records is it.

Frankly fans of modern fighters who desperately cling to these clips in the hopes of somehow circumventing Grebs record come across to me as desperate. Rather like a drowning man clinging to a plank of wood.

[Dempsey1238]

Greb did not want to hurt the old legend, it was just playing around for the cameras. Jack Dempsey didnt look like he could have fought a lick when he spar with Jack McAuliffe.

[Orisha]

Robinson UD.

[unitas]

look, nobody ever saw this guy fight, right???

so without footage, you dont have any valid empirical evidence.

a record and reports can only lead you so far. but they have to be interpreted in the context of their own time.

were greb to face say arthur abraham today.....and going by the reports on greb.......AA would almost certainly win.

by dq in round one or two at latest.