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Old 12-20-2012, 05:33 PM   #1
mcvey
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Default Jeffries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

Who was the more physically gone?

The 35 years old Jeffries who came back to,answer the call to "redeem the honour of the white race", against Jack Johnson?

Or ,the 37 years old Peter Jackson ,who consented to be used as cannon fodder for the up and coming Jeffries because he was destitute?
I ask the Forum for their opinions?

Last edited by mcvey; 12-24-2012 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

Jackson probably had TB; Jeffries was just out of shape.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

Hardly worth responding to with respect, I actually think-with no solid proof to back it up, mind-that Jeffries could have beaten any non top ten fighter in 1910-maybe most top 5-10? Jackson wasn't competitive probably with a top 30 class of fighter IMO.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

Jackson was a bit more past it, but obviously both guys weren't anywhere near the same after so many years of inactivity combined with abuse of their bodies. Peter was slightly older than Jeff was when he came back. He did not have TB at that time, but he trained less than Jeff did for Johnson. Jeff had worked for about 1.5 years and steadily and gradually tried to shake off years of inactivity. Jackson was doing the same, but took much less time to do it. Jackson was a known boozer, while Jeff both drank and overate, though I think food was his bigger vice. Jackson had less weight to lose, for he took a little better care of himself physically, acting as a boxing coach. The actual result might make one think Jackson was further past it, but that doesn't hold as much water as you think, because style matchup had something to do with it. Jeff was a big strong puncher, so he got a shot guy out of there faster. Conversely, Johnson was not taking any chances with a very big dude who's best chance was to land a bomb, so he fought more cautiously and defensively and gradually wore down a guy known for a chin, durability, and heavy hands. Both were said to look good in training, but then anyone can look good against inferior sparring partners. When they got in there with real talent that was not past-it like they were, obviously we know what happened.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

Jackson was in my view was further past it than jeff, and honestly, I don't think it's that close.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack View Post
Jackson was a bit more past it, but obviously both guys weren't anywhere near the same after so many years of inactivity combined with abuse of their bodies. Peter was slightly older than Jeff was when he came back. He did not have TB at that time, but he trained less than Jeff did for Johnson. Jeff had worked for about 1.5 years and steadily and gradually tried to shake off years of inactivity. Jackson was doing the same, but took much less time to do it. Jackson was a known boozer, while Jeff both drank and overate, though I think food was his bigger vice. Jackson had less weight to lose, for he took a little better care of himself physically, acting as a boxing coach. The actual result might make one think Jackson was further past it, but that doesn't hold as much water as you think, because style matchup had something to do with it. Jeff was a big strong puncher, so he got a shot guy out of there faster. Conversely, Johnson was not taking any chances with a very big dude who's best chance was to land a bomb, so he fought more cautiously and defensively and gradually wore down a guy known for a chin, durability, and heavy hands. Both were said to look good in training, but then anyone can look good against inferior sparring partners. When they got in there with real talent that was not past-it like they were, obviously we know what happened.

Always love the insight bud.. just curious why you don't think Jackson had TB... What exactly are you basing this on? Seems to me, it's likely he did since he was so far gone only 3 years later.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

Well, he didn't have active TB. Inactive TB won't be noticeable and should not affect performance. TB when active will affect the lungs, and no one said Jackson had a lung ailment affecting him at the time he was training for Jeff. TB can remain in an inactive (dormant) state for years without causing symptoms or spreading to other people. When the immune system of a patient with dormant TB is weakened, the TB can become active (reactivate) and cause infection in the lungs or other parts of the body. The most common symptoms and signs of TB are fatigue, fever, weight loss, coughing, and night sweats. Often, they'll cough up blood. Many years ago, this disease was referred to as "consumption" because these patients often would waste away and die. It was a very common cause of death back then, and most likely its symptoms would have been noticed. Jackson, from all appearances, looked to be physically fit and was the same fighting weight as in his prime. Jackson fought Jeff in March 1898. He died in July 1901, over three years later. Unlike today, they had no really effective treatment for it during Jackson's lifetime, so it isn't surprising that he would die quickly from it once it became active, particularly if he had an alcohol problem as well.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack View Post
Jackson was a bit more past it, but obviously both guys weren't anywhere near the same after so many years of inactivity combined with abuse of their bodies. Peter was slightly older than Jeff was when he came back. He did not have TB at that time, but he trained less than Jeff did for Johnson. Jeff had worked for about 1.5 years and steadily and gradually tried to shake off years of inactivity. Jackson was doing the same, but took much less time to do it. Jackson was a known boozer, while Jeff both drank and overate, though I think food was his bigger vice. Jackson had less weight to lose, for he took a little better care of himself physically, acting as a boxing coach. The actual result might make one think Jackson was further past it, but that doesn't hold as much water as you think, because style matchup had something to do with it. Jeff was a big strong puncher, so he got a shot guy out of there faster. Conversely, Johnson was not taking any chances with a very big dude who's best chance was to land a bomb, so he fought more cautiously and defensively and gradually wore down a guy known for a chin, durability, and heavy hands. Both were said to look good in training, but then anyone can look good against inferior sparring partners. When they got in there with real talent that was not past-it like they were, obviously we know what happened.
As you say Jeffries trained for around 1.5 years, Jackson trained for 6 weeks, big difference.

Jackson 's T B is often attributed to his broken ribs against Slavin , the ribs punctured his lung. Couple of days ago I read that Jackson took off between 20/25lbs for the fight that is a lot in 6 weeks,especially for a 37 years old man. Personally I don't think it is even close who was the farthest past his prime.
Jeffries, given a couple of tune ups, could probably still have beaten a couple of lesser contenders.

Jackson, desperate for money 5 months after the Jeffries debacle took on Jim Jeffords,Jeffords was a 19 years old novice, the referee stopped the mis match after 4 rds with Jackson on the verge of collapse. Jeffords beat a 165lbs ham and egger next ,then was kod by Ruhlin in 5 rds, Armstrong in 3 and Sharkey in 2. Him destroying Jackson so convincingly shows irrevocably, and totally how far Jackson had slipped.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
As you say Jeffries trained for around 1.5 years, Jackson trained for 6 weeks, big difference.

Jackson 's T B is often attributed to his broken ribs against Slavin , the ribs punctured his lung. Couple of days ago I read that Jackson took off between 20/25lbs for the fight that is a lot in 6 weeks,especially for a 37 years old man. Personally I don't think it is even close who was the farthest past his prime.
Jeffries, given a couple of tune ups, could probably still have beaten a couple of lesser contenders.

Jackson, desperate for money 5 months after the Jeffries debacle took on Jim Jeffords,Jeffords was a 19 years old novice, the referee stopped the mis match after 4 rds with Jackson on the verge of collapse. Jeffords beat a 165lbs ham and egger next ,then was kod by Ruhlin in 5 rds, Armstrong in 3 and Sharkey in 2. Him destroying Jackson so convincingly shows irrevocably, and totally how far Jackson had slipped.
Actually, Jackson had been in training for prospective comeback matches since early December 1897, so he wasn't just training cold. He fought Jeff in late March 1898. He did look phyiscally fit to those who saw his body and saw him in training. But the earlier point re inactivity and relatively less preparation time than Jeff remains the same.

Jackson did not have TB in the early 1890s. I challenge anyone to find primary sources saying otherwise. In fact, I am not aware of any primary sources that say Jackson's ribs were broke against Slavin or that his lungs were punctured. My recollection is Jackson easily beat Slavin and came out relatively unscathed.

Jackson was physically fit and well and ready to fight Corbett for the championship all the way up to late 1894, but when he realized there was no real likelihood that the bout would happen, he gave up and essentially retired. Then he became a boozer.

Actually, Jackson fought Jeffords over a YEAR after fighting Jeffries. He may very well have been suffering from TB at that point. Jeffords was a big dude at 6'4", but he wasn't much, as you noted. Of course, Jackson not fighting for a year after the Jeffries bout says something too.

Last edited by apollack; 12-21-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

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Originally Posted by apollack View Post
Actually, Jackson had been training for prospective comeback matches since early December 1897. But the point remains the same.

Jackson did not have TB in the early 1890s. I challenge anyone to find primary sources saying otherwise. In fact, I am not aware of any primary sources that say Jackson's ribs were broke against Slavin or that his lungs were punctured. My recollection is Jackson easily beat Slavin and came out relatively unscathed.

Actually, Jackson fought Jeffords over a YEAR after fighting Jeffries.
Just checked Box rec ,you are right about the date of the Jeffords fight.

"Back in England in 1892, Jackson won the British Empire championship with a second-round knockout of Jem Smith, and then defended the title with a 10th-round knockout of Frank Slavin. In that bout, however, Jackson suffered two broken ribs that punctured a lung. He retired for six years, but staged an ill-fated comeback in 1898. James J. Jeffries and Jim Jeffords knocked him out. Three years later, on July 13, 1901, in Roma, Queensland Australia, he died of tuberculosis, contracted from his 1892 lung injury. "


"But Jackson would never lift the world crown. After the Corbett draw he went back to England and defeated the snarling Australian-Irish fighter [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] to lift the British and Commonwealth titles in a difficult bout. The pair had bad blood since Sydney days and they still hated each other intensely. In the eighth round Slavin broke Jackson’s rib and a splinter punctured a lung. In intense pain, Jackson seemed beaten but rallied in the tenth to take control of the fight and pounded Slavin to pieces. The referee insisted the fight continue until Slavin was knocked out but the damage was fatal to Jackson."

"The vicious and brutal fight saw both fighters bleed heavily from the mouth, almost collapse at different times and stage comebacks after suffering a beating from the other. Jackson concealed and protected his weak area, his broken ribs sustained from an earlier fight, which Slavin had attacked and caused more damage."

"Rightly or wrongly, he felt that there was a peculiar shame in
accepting defeat from a ******. But he knew that he would
have to make haste. Good as his condition was, these six hard
rounds had taken much of his strength. He drew every breath
with labour: and though many of a boxer's movements, whether
in offence or defence, are instinctive, the work was very hard
work, his light boxing boots were like the boots of a diver, his
knees shook a little as he stood still. He was very weary. But
he meant to win. He gathered himself up and hurled himself
at Jackson, and by sheer determination and weight forced the
black across the ring to the ropes, and then with all his weight
behind it he sent in his tremendous body-blow. Mr. Corri, who
was sitting near the ring-side, tells us that it " seemed to spring
from the calves of his legs and upwards to the muscles of his
right shoulder and right arm." And, " I have never seen such
an expression of consummate deadliness upon a human face as
that which spread across the features of Slavin at this crucial
stage."

The blow doubled Jackson up " like a knife." It caught
him just under the heart and the sound of it was heard throughout
the hall. The black man gasped and reeled. The onlookers were
completely silent save for an involuntary " Oh! " which here
and there forced itself to utterance. Had Slavin hit Jackson but
half a minute earlier in the round he must have won. The black
was helpless. Slavin must have finished him. As it was, before
the white man could follow his advantage, the round ended, and

124



Peter "Jackson and Frank Slavin

Jackson had a minute in which to recover. In his corner, and loud
enough for Mr. Corri to hear him, Jackson said to his seconds,
" If he hits me like that again, I'm done." And his seconds
worked on him, sponging, massaging, fanning, doing all that
they could to restore him. "

Bohun Lynch.
I've read that Corbett broke Jackson's ribs.Any comment?
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:37 PM   #11
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

As far as I know, Jackson and Slavin were to appear in at least one exhibition bout of 5 rounds shortly after their actual bout, on June 5. If Jackson had had broken ribs, I don't think he'd be able to participate in it. I don't have an actual source for it, though, just a brief mention of it in Sunday NY Herald (quoting its European edition).
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

McVey, What is your source? Is it primary? Sounds like b.s. fanciful spin written years later to make a good story, but I don't know.
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

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Originally Posted by apollack View Post
McVey, What is your source? Is it primary? Sounds like b.s. fanciful spin written years later to make a good story, but I don't know.
Can't find a primary source. Any response on the Corbett/ ribs ?
ps I think Jeffries comes out of this rather well, his conduct towards Jackson appears to have been compassionate, and courteous.
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
As far as I know, Jackson and Slavin were to appear in at least one exhibition bout of 5 rounds shortly after their actual bout, on June 5. If Jackson had had broken ribs, I don't think he'd be able to participate in it. I don't have an actual source for it, though, just a brief mention of it in Sunday NY Herald (quoting its European edition).
I read tonight that Slavin got a broken jaw in their fight don't know if it's true any info on those exhibitions?
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Jeffrries 1910 Reno Or Jackson1898 ? Who Was Farthest Over That Hill?

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Can't find a primary source. Any response on the Corbett/ ribs ?
ps I think Jeffries comes out of this rather well, his conduct towards Jackson appears to have been compassionate, and courteous.
Ribs were sore but not broken.

Yes Jeff quickly realized Peter was gone and stepped back when he saw he was out, for Peter was hanging there helplessly, sitting on a lower rope, with his head dropping down.

Jeff took no credit for the victory, saying Peter was a shell of himself. Peter did look good in the first round, causing some to think it might be a long fight. But Jeff was taking his time and feeling him out, as he often did. Once he started attacking and unleashing the power, he got Jackson out of there quick.
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