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Old 12-09-2012, 08:56 PM   #1
PetethePrince
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Default Roach's Strategy Was Sound

For those that are licking their chops at Roach's latest and consecutive failures. I would hold just a little. In my view, Roach's biggest failures came with his lack of developing Khan's style and sense of defensive awareness. But hey, you can't instill skills into every fighter. Khan was clearly a very gifted athlete with some arguably low ring IQ. Chavez was supposed to lose to Martinez, and it's not like Roach can prevent his fighter from snacking and smoking pot. Back to the fight, anyhow.

Pac was just about having the best success that he has ever had against Marquez since the 1st round of their 1st fight. Pac was touching him up and upon re-watching the fight in HD it seemed that momentum was going Pac's way. The 1st round was close, as was the 4th but I genuinely believe Pac won every round besides the one he got dropped in. He was touching up Marquez quite a bit and had him pretty hurt in that 5th round. This makes the dramatic ending even more unexpected and shocking. Marquez nose was busted up and his age was starting to show as Pac's activity and speed seemed to be wearing on the Mexican. I actually thought Marquez looked a little slower and pushing with some punches, but Pac didn't look immune to the effects of age either. Both looked just about as good as they could for their age and wear.

The mistake Roach made was in the third fight. Roach got disillusioned into thinking that for all Pac's improvements that he could out-box and out-dazzle the master boxer and counter-punching. This fight was about Pac using his speed, power, and activity to overwhelm his older rival. I think it was working. The truth of the matter is that Marquez has far far less room for error against Pac. He has to fight the perfect fight. I thought he did that in their 3rd fight which he was robbed of. The strategy to overwhelm the counter-puncher runs some risk. Obviously they never believed Marquez had the sort of power and timing to turn the lights out. I don't think many of us here did, I certainly didn't. But the strategy was a sound one and it was certainly working.

It reminds me of shades of Marciano-Moore. Just ship the master counter-puncher an overwhelming amount of punches. He'll time a few in between but eventually you're going to wear him down and ship him too many punches that he won't be able to handle and react too. He won't be able to match your activity. In their 3rd fight the workrate was far too low for Pac. While risk is important, Pac obviously got too careless. Feinted, dropped his hands, and basically fell into a master right hand. Marquez ducked the jab and put everything into that short right hand. However, it was still the best strategy for Roach to implement. The only question was whether or not Pac could muster up that old Tazmanian fury. I think the answer was he could. At least enough in respect to the older age and pace of both combatants at this stage of career.

Thoughts in terms of the actual gameplan? It certainly seemed to play into Marquez's strategy, but that's difficult to say too. It seems Marquez was not getting that grain more he needed to in order to outpoint Pac and realized this. He may have adjusted to patiently try to time his counter shots more toward power. I think the focus was always more on power, though, as he knocked Pac down in the 3rd. He landed some big shots before the KO too, but certainly was getting out-worked and touch up more than in the last fights in my view.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

Kinda long... But last night was not Roach's fault.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

Pac improved and it was a technical way, so you know Roach was behind it. It's just ridiculous that it was only made in the 4th fight.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:01 PM   #4
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

I'll summarize.

Can't out-box the master counter-puncher so ship him an overwhelming amount of punches in the hopes that your activity, speed, and power overwhelm him. Pac got too careless, but the strategy was working as Pac was having the most success he had against Marquez in a long time. A lot like Marciano-Moore. A fight where Marciano got trapped by a counter right straight punch and floored. However, different result, obviously. In the third fight, Roach wrongly thought Pac could out-box Marquez and instead they tried to channel the old Pac that may him so legendary.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:03 PM   #5
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

My old buddy Randall Tex Cobb summed it up best when he said "" When the bell rings the trainer goes down the steps what happens in the ring is the fighters problem"
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:04 PM   #6
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
I'll summarize.

Can't out-box the master counter-puncher so ship him an overwhelming amount of punches in the hopes that your activity, speed, and power overwhelm him. Pac got too careless, but the strategy was working as Pac was having the most success he had against Marquez in a long time. A lot like Marciano-Moore. A fight where Marciano got trapped by a counter right straight punch and floored. However, different result, obviously. In the third fight, Roach wrongly thought Pac could out-box Marquez and instead they tried to channel the old Pac that may him so legendary.
Good breakdown.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

He did a good job in there, he probably looked his best since arguably the margarito fight. He's been missing that killer instinct he used to have, and he brought it back out last night. Problem is his chin seemed to fail him which is the last thing you'd ever expect.

If he went about his work with tad bit more care he probably would've avoided that KO but you never know. It seems like Marquez focused a lot on power and landing that one big monster punch.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

Both fighters were using a high risk, high reward strategy. Someone was going to get knocked out or stopped, one way or the other. Pac was being more aggressive and active, while Marquez was sitting down on his shots more and looking for big, hurtful attacks and counters rather than just focusing on getting points. Marquez almost lost that gamble -- he looked hurt at one point, and Pac was picking up steam. What saved him (much like in the first fight) was his superb ability to stay calm and think when under fire, combined with his physical ability to recover quickly. That's why he was able to come back from three knockdowns in the first fight when other fighters might have panicked or had meltdowns. Even when Pac was hitting him and winning the round, you could see (at the end) Marquez waiting for his one big opportunity, backing up and then suddenly throwing the right hand.

Should Roach have changed the gameplan? It's hard to tell. If Pac had been more cautious and less active, then he at least would have avoided being brutally knocked out. Would he have been able to win like that? Probably not, but I actually think he could have had a good shot. His straight left was hitting Marquez, and if he had been able to set it up in a less predictable way (he always tries the 1-2, or the feint-1-2) then he might have been able to be successful.

When he lead with the straight left, timing it to land when Marquez threw his jab, he caught him by surprise and got a knockdown. That's the sort of thing that has more chance of working -- you need to surprise Marquez and throw new things into the mix. Counterpunchers thrive on the opponent's predictability -- if they memorise your favourite moves and combinations, you're in trouble.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:05 PM   #9
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

pac was going for the ko that is where he failed. he should have fought intelligently and let the fight come to him. roachs strategy failed miserably
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

Pac knew he wasn't getting a decision so he got over aggressive, careless and was subsequently KTFO'd. Until that point, the game plan was working well.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

Roach is a ****ing idiot, and a horrible trainer! 2 of his fighters got KO'd this year. Why is that? He doesn't teach them defense! It is his fault!
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

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Old 12-09-2012, 10:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

The strategy of trying to "box" JMM was stupid. If Pac didn't get Marquez early, like he was close to doing in round 5, it wasn't going to come late because Marquez was banging him ahrd to the body and doing a good job of taking the left well.

Using more of the right hand for Pac was a nice wrinkle in the gameplan, but I question Roach's strategy, especially after the Bradley outclassing.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outboxer View Post
Both fighters were using a high risk, high reward strategy. Someone was going to get knocked out or stopped, one way or the other. Pac was being more aggressive and active, while Marquez was sitting down on his shots more and looking for big, hurtful attacks and counters rather than just focusing on getting points. Marquez almost lost that gamble -- he looked hurt at one point, and Pac was picking up steam. What saved him (much like in the first fight) was his superb ability to stay calm and think when under fire, combined with his physical ability to recover quickly. That's why he was able to come back from three knockdowns in the first fight when other fighters might have panicked or had meltdowns. Even when Pac was hitting him and winning the round, you could see (at the end) Marquez waiting for his one big opportunity, backing up and then suddenly throwing the right hand.

Should Roach have changed the gameplan? It's hard to tell. If Pac had been more cautious and less active, then he at least would have avoided being brutally knocked out. Would he have been able to win like that? Probably not, but I actually think he could have had a good shot. His straight left was hitting Marquez, and if he had been able to set it up in a less predictable way (he always tries the 1-2, or the feint-1-2) then he might have been able to be successful.

When he lead with the straight left, timing it to land when Marquez threw his jab, he caught him by surprise and got a knockdown. That's the sort of thing that has more chance of working -- you need to surprise Marquez and throw new things into the mix. Counterpunchers thrive on the opponent's predictability -- if they memorise your favourite moves and combinations, you're in trouble.
Agree completely, great way to describe it. High-risk high-reward was the theme going into this fight. Pacquiao made one mistake that Marquez exploited to the fullest, but his overall Pattern was working great. the 4th and 5th rounds reminded me of what I imagined as a worst case scenario for Marquez in the 3rd fight; the fresher legs allowing him superior mobility and his combination of movement, feints, and handspeed catching Marquez off guard with leads and combinations. But I think JMM was way more focused on hurting Manny than he was winning rounds. Anything could have feasibly happened in that fight. So far though, each time Manny comes in with something different, it's Marquez who seems to come to class prepared to do what's necessary.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: Roach's Strategy Was Sound

he was brilliant. he was winning the fight. he just paid the price and got caught. end of story. could happen to anybody even the best of them. teddy was talking about what the fighters have to do to win the fight and he hit it right on the nail with jmm. when pac shuffles his fight, bang.
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