Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-18-2014, 07:58 AM   #1
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,428
vCash: 1000
Default Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Following on from the thread discussing Jeannette's controversial victory over Georges Carpentier,I thought I would compare Jack Johnson's results against the opponents he has in common with Joe Jeannette.

Tony Ross.
Johnson won easy decision 1909

Jeannette won dsq. 1912
Jeannette drew 1901

Battling Jim Johnson
Johnson drew 10rds 1913 Johnson breaks his arm in the 3rd rd
Jeannette won w6 1912
Jeannette w10 1912 Jeannette knocked down in 1st rd
Jeannette w10 1913
Jeannette w dsq 1913
Jeannette w10 1914
Jeannette drew 10 1914
Jeannette w 10 1914
Jeannette drew 10 1914
Jeannette L10 1915
Jeannette fake no contest 1918

Morris Harris
Johnson w ko 1 1905 Johnson fought Harris and Black Bill

the same day.

Jeannette L6 1904
Jeannette L6 1905
Jeannette wtko 4 1907
Jeannette w10 1908
Jeannette drew 10 1910
Jeannette w10 1910

Sam McVey
Johnson w20 1903 easy win
Johnson w20 1903 easy win
Johnson w ko 20 1904 easy win


Jeannette L20 1909
Jeannette w rtd 49 1909 Both men down multiple times
Jeannette drew 30 1909
Jeannette drew 12 1915


Sam Langford

Johnson w 15 1906 easy win for Jack, Langford down for 9 counts twice Johnson scales about 185lbs Langford 156


Jeannette wtko 8 1905 Langford retires on stool end of r d 8.

Jeannette L 15 1906
Jeannette drew 12 1907
Jeannette drew 12 1908 Langford 175lbs Jeannette 200
Jeannette L6 1908 Langford 165lbs Jeanette floored 3 times
Jeannette L15 1910 Langford 170lbs Jeannette 190
Jeannette L12 1911 Jeannette floored in rd 1 easy win for Langford.

Jeannette L 10 1911 Jeannette down 3 times Langford scaled 178lbs
Jeannette drew 10 1913
Jeannette drew 1914
Jeannette w12 1915
Jeannette L ko7 1916
Jeannette L12 1917



Tom Cowler
Johnson w 15 1919 easy win,Johnson carried Cowler


Jeannette w8 1919
Jeannette w10 1919 easy win for Jeannette


Sandy Ferguson
Johnson w10 1903
Johnson w6 1903 easy win for Johnson
Johnson w20 1903
Johnson no contest 1904
Johnson w dsq 1905 easy win


Jeannette w12 1908
Jeannette w20 1909
Jeannette L 12 1909
Jeannette wtko8 1909 easy win


Black Bill
Johnson w6 1904
Johnson wko4 1905
Johnson w 3 1905
Johnson w ko7 1906


Jeannette Lko4 1906
Jeannette drew 6 1905
Jeannette wko5 1910
Jeanette w ko3 1912
Jeannette w dsq 6 1912
Jeannette w 10 1912
Jeannette w tko 9 1914


Young Peter Jackson
Johnson w 12 1905


Jeannette w6 1907




It seems ,when he was in shape Langford was Jeannette's master.

McVey seems to have held his own with Jeannette.

Jeannette also had mixed results against Jim Johnson.

I think Jeannette might be a trifle overated,he was on the floor a hell of a lot and not just to Langford, he got up and was hard to stop but being down so much makes you wonder about the quality of his defence. Jeannette has 70 kos in 104 fights but apart form a great tko over McVey and a corner retirement win over Langford ,they are mostly stoppages over journeymen.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-18-2014, 10:08 AM   #2
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 9,302
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Following on from the thread discussing Jeannette's controversial victory over Georges Carpentier,I thought I would compare Jack Johnson's results against the opponents he has in common with Joe Jeannette.

Tony Ross.
Johnson won easy decision 1909

Jeannette won dsq. 1912
Jeannette drew 1901

Battling Jim Johnson
Johnson drew 10rds 1913 Johnson breaks his arm in the 3rd rd
Jeannette won w6 1912
Jeannette w10 1912 Jeannette knocked down in 1st rd
Jeannette w10 1913
Jeannette w dsq 1913
Jeannette w10 1914
Jeannette drew 10 1914
Jeannette w 10 1914
Jeannette drew 10 1914
Jeannette L10 1915
Jeannette fake no contest 1918

Morris Harris
Johnson w ko 1 1905 Johnson fought Harris and Black Bill

the same day.

Jeannette L6 1904
Jeannette L6 1905
Jeannette wtko 4 1907
Jeannette w10 1908
Jeannette drew 10 1910
Jeannette w10 1910

Sam McVey
Johnson w20 1903 easy win
Johnson w20 1903 easy win
Johnson w ko 20 1904 easy win


Jeannette L20 1909
Jeannette w rtd 49 1909 Both men down multiple times
Jeannette drew 30 1909
Jeannette drew 12 1915


Sam Langford

Johnson w 15 1906 easy win for Jack, Langford down for 9 counts twice Johnson scales about 185lbs Langford 156


Jeannette wtko 8 1905 Langford retires on stool end of r d 8.

Jeannette L 15 1906
Jeannette drew 12 1907
Jeannette drew 12 1908 Langford 175lbs Jeannette 200
Jeannette L6 1908 Langford 165lbs Jeanette floored 3 times
Jeannette L15 1910 Langford 170lbs Jeannette 190
Jeannette L12 1911 Jeannette floored in rd 1 easy win for Langford.

Jeannette L 10 1911 Jeannette down 3 times Langford scaled 178lbs
Jeannette drew 10 1913
Jeannette drew 1914
Jeannette w12 1915
Jeannette L ko7 1916
Jeannette L12 1917



Tom Cowler
Johnson w 15 1919 easy win,Johnson carried Cowler


Jeannette w8 1919
Jeannette w10 1919 easy win for Jeannette


Sandy Ferguson
Johnson w10 1903
Johnson w6 1903 easy win for Johnson
Johnson w20 1903
Johnson no contest 1904
Johnson w dsq 1905 easy win


Jeannette w12 1908
Jeannette w20 1909
Jeannette L 12 1909
Jeannette wtko8 1909 easy win


Black Bill
Johnson w6 1904
Johnson wko4 1905
Johnson w 3 1905
Johnson w ko7 1906


Jeannette Lko4 1906
Jeannette drew 6 1905
Jeannette wko5 1910
Jeanette w ko3 1912
Jeannette w dsq 6 1912
Jeannette w 10 1912
Jeannette w tko 9 1914


Young Peter Jackson
Johnson w 12 1905


Jeannette w6 1907




It seems ,when he was in shape Langford was Jeannette's master.

McVey seems to have held his own with Jeannette.

Jeannette also had mixed results against Jim Johnson.

I think Jeannette might be a trifle overated,he was on the floor a hell of a lot and not just to Langford, he got up and was hard to stop but being down so much makes you wonder about the quality of his defence. Jeannette has 70 kos in 104 fights but apart form a great tko over McVey and a corner retirement win over Langford ,they are mostly stoppages over journeymen.
good point
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 02:48 PM   #3
The Long Count
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 805
vCash: 500
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Against common opposition Jeanette's results are clearly inferior to Johnson's (would of been nice if there was a larger sample of Johnson vs Langford when Langford bulked up). At heavyweight not p4p obviously where do you rate Jeanette against his fellow black dynamite peers naturally placing them behind Johnson. (Jeanette, Mcvey, Langford) ?
The Long Count is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 03:01 PM   #4
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,093
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Underrated, not overrated.

But not anything like as good as Johnson.

Johnson avoided him in his prime though, so we can never say for certain.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 03:58 PM   #5
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,428
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Underrated, not overrated.

But not anything like as good as Johnson.

Johnson avoided him in his prime though, so we can never say for certain.

I don't believe this is true.Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice but the authorities vetoed it.Nothing in their contests suggested he had a live chance against Jack who dropped him multiple times in their fights.Why would Johnson avoid him?

Looking at their respective results I think I put Jeannette below McVey ,and I'm certain he gets nowhere near a prime Langford.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 04:21 PM   #6
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,428
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Long Count View Post
Against common opposition Jeanette's results are clearly inferior to Johnson's (would of been nice if there was a larger sample of Johnson vs Langford when Langford bulked up). At heavyweight not p4p obviously where do you rate Jeanette against his fellow black dynamite peers naturally placing them behind Johnson. (Jeanette, Mcvey, Langford) ?
In 1906 Langford was thrashed over 15rds by Johnson being dropped twice for long 9 counts and having his nose broken Langfrod was 156lbs Johnson 185lbs= 29lbs discrepancy.

Langford fought Jeannette in1906 too, Jeannette was 26 years old and a month earlier against Johnson had scaled 185lbs assuming Langford was around 156 again thats the same discrepancy, but a totally opposite result.

They drew in1907 we dont have the weights.
In1908 they fought another draw Langford was 175lbs Jeannette 200lbs.

Another fight that year saw Langford at165lbs beat Jeannette over 15 rds.
We dont have Jeannette's weight but he had been 200lbs for their previous fight that year.

1910 Saw a 170lbs Langford beat a 190lbs Jeannette.

1911 they went at it again Langford won all but one rd and dropped Jeannette.

Again that year a178lbs Langford beat Jeannette whose weight was not announced, but a month earlier he had scaled 195lbs for a fight.

My long winded fact sheet is to demonstrate that whatever weight advantage Johnson enjoyed over Langford Jeannette did too , difference being Jeannette lost those fights convincingly.

Last edited by mcvey; 07-18-2014 at 06:16 PM.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 04:56 PM   #7
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,116
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Joe Jeannette took up boxing late for the day, I think at age 25 with no amateur experience. His prime was around 1907-1915 . He should be judged here ( 1907-1915 ), not before or after.

During this time, Jeannette has wins and draws vs. prime versions of Sam McVey, and Sam Langford, which is something Jack Johnson can not say.

I think Jeanette's lone loss to Ferguson was a bad call, but I'll let those who know for sure comment on it.

Jeannette seems to have done better vs Battling Jim Johnson in comparison to Jack Johnson as well. Tough as nails, and rather active, you could say that Jeannette matched up rather well vs big punchers, and larger men.

I would however say that Langford was better than Jeannette.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 05:20 PM   #8
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,093
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
[/u]
I don't believe this is true.Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice but the authorities vetoed it.Nothing in their contests suggested he had a live chance against Jack who dropped him multiple times in their fights.Why would Johnson avoid him?

Looking at their respective results I think I put Jeannette below McVey ,and I'm certain he gets nowhere near a prime Langford.
Well he fought Jeannette early in his career and he was clearly one of the best contenders of his era. He may have signed to fight him, but never did fight him, and the arguments about his fighting him are just going to be about money again.

I put Jennette above McVey. SO did McVey.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 05:33 PM   #9
The Long Count
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 805
vCash: 500
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Langford certaintly seemed to have Jeanette's number. I place Langford above Jeanette and Mcvey as well, the question now is Jeanette or Mcvey, who was better. I always just went with Jeanette but I admittedly am not well versed in this era and only judged by readily available (surface) information. Perhaps a closer look is needed to better gauge who was better of the two.
The Long Count is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 06:48 PM   #10
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,428
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Joe Jeannette took up boxing late for the day, I think at age 25 with no amateur experience. His prime was around 1907-1915 . He should be judged here ( 1907-1915 ), not before or after.

During this time, Jeannette has wins and draws vs. prime versions of Sam McVey, and Sam Langford, which is something Jack Johnson can not say.

I think Jeanette's lone loss to Ferguson was a bad call, but I'll let those who know for sure comment on it.

Jeannette seems to have done better vs Battling Jim Johnson in comparison to Jack Johnson as well. Tough as nails, and rather active, you could say that Jeannette matched up rather well vs big punchers, and larger men.

I would say that Langford was better than Jeannette.
If you want to say Jeannette's prime is 1907 to 1915 then Langford is clearly superior.
During that period they fought 10 times and Jeannette won just one, in 1915. Langford won the next 2 in1916 ko7rd and w12 in1917 There is no argument.
My point is that Jeannette enjoyed as much of a weight advantage as Johnson did against Langford but he was beaten in those fights.
Jeannette didn't face that many big punchers, those he did had him on the floor a lot.
Langford & McVey both had him down multiple times as did Johnson.
Carpentier had him on the floor.

In the period you say Jeannette was prime Langford had him down7times in fights.

McVey10 times and Langford like Carpentier was conceding lumps of weight to him.You delight in mentioning,[ about once a week] that Johnson was knocked down by 170lbs Choynski you never mention that Johnson was around the same weight .

How about the fact that Jeannette was knocked down 7times by Langford who was conceding up to 30lbs in those fights ,or that Carpentier was 165 lbs when he put Jeannette down?


Jeannette had 10 fights with Battling Jim Johnson.
he won 6 he was knocked down in one of them, drew 2, lost 1 and one was a no contest.

Johnson drew with Battling Jim over 10rds but he broke his arm in the 3rd rd.
I cannot see how anyone can say Jeannette did better given the cicumstances of those fights?
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 06:51 PM   #11
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,428
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Long Count View Post
Langford certaintly seemed to have Jeanette's number. I place Langford above Jeanette and Mcvey as well, the question now is Jeanette or Mcvey, who was better. I always just went with Jeanette but I admittedly am not well versed in this era and only judged by readily available (surface) information. Perhaps a closer look is needed to better gauge who was better of the two.
I always went with Jeannette over McVey, now I've changed my mind. I go.

Johnson
Langford
McVey
Jeannette
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 07:00 PM   #12
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,428
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Well he fought Jeannette early in his career and he was clearly one of the best contenders of his era. He may have signed to fight him, but never did fight him, and the arguments about his fighting him are just going to be about money again.

I put Jennette above McVey. SO did McVey.
No they weren't about money in this instance they were about a black man defending his world's heavyweight title against another blackman. Therefore the status quo would remainthe same . As the reports which I posted emphatically demonstrate.

Here's a couple from 1912 The excuse being "for the betterment of sport"
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Source for McVey rating Jeannette above himself please ? Johnson rated McVey above Jeannette.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 05:11 AM   #13
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,093
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
No they weren't about money in this instance they were about a black man defending his world's heavyweight title against another blackman .
But he did defend it against a blackman.

Anyway, it's the usual, and as usual my position is the fight could have been made, didn't get made, should have been made, the champion bares the brunt.

I've provided the source for McVey rating Jennette above himself before, and this year too. McVey was quoted as saying so by the La Vie au Grand Air.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 08:18 AM   #14
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,116
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
If you want to say Jeannette's prime is 1907 to 1915 then Langford is clearly superior.
During that period they fought 10 times and Jeannette won just one, in 1915. Langford won the next 2 in1916 ko7rd and w12 in1917 There is no argument.
My point is that Jeannette enjoyed as much of a weight advantage as Johnson did against Langford but he was beaten in those fights.
Jeannette didn't face that many big punchers, those he did had him on the floor a lot.
Langford & McVey both had him down multiple times as did Johnson.
Carpentier had him on the floor.

In the period you say Jeannette was prime Langford had him down7times in fights.

McVey10 times and Langford like Carpentier was conceding lumps of weight to him.You delight in mentioning,[ about once a week] that Johnson was knocked down by 170lbs Choynski you never mention that Johnson was around the same weight .

How about the fact that Jeannette was knocked down times by Langford who was conceding up to 30lbs in those fights ,or that Carpentier was 165 lbs when he put Jeannette down?


Jeannette had 10 fights with Battling Jim Johnson.
he won 6 he was knocked down in one of them, drew 2, lost 1 and one was a no contest.

Johnson drew with Battling Jim over 10rds but he broke his arm in the 3rd rd.
I cannot see how anyone can say Jeannette did better given the circumstances of those fights?
My point was Jeannette in his prime fought the best when they were in their prime. Jack Johnson did not. As such one can fairly say that Jeannette was not as good as a prime Langford, but slightly better than a prime MCvey.

We do not know how Jack Johnson would do vs prime versions of Langford, McVey, or Jeannette while he was champion.

Jeannette going 6-2-1 ( 1 no contest ) vs Jim Battling Johnson is superior to Jack Johnson's 0-0-1

PS: Regarding Choynski vs. Jack Johnson, you could fairly say that Choynski was past his best. Choynski's prime was in the 1890's. No one has the exact weights. What you can say is this Jeannete when down almost always beat the count. Johnson did not.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 08:24 AM   #15
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,116
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
But he did defend it against a blackman.

Anyway, it's the usual, and as usual my position is the fight could have been made, didn't get made, should have been made, the champion bares the brunt.

I've provided the source for McVey rating Jennette above himself before, and this year too. McVey was quoted as saying so by the La Vie au Grand Air.

This is correct on all counts. Johnson did face a black man ( With a journeyman's record ) in a title shot, and the result was he escaped with a draw.

Johnson could have fought anywhere in the world and had big time offers from known promoters to meet Langford, McVey and Jeannette.

Jeannette words, " When Jack became champion he forgot about his old friends and drew the color line against his own people "

Money was not the issue for not fighting the best out there, Johnson wanted easy title defenses against smaller men, way past their prime men or beaten commodities.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013