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Old 12-11-2012, 04:42 PM   #1
mrtony80
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Default 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...


Pacquiao being hurt was due to (mostly) deterioration.


Marquez trained for power, and definitely looked more powerful in there, but for the most part, he was able to hurt Pacquiao because Pac has deteriorated, as all fighters eventually do. Clear evidence of this is the 3rd round knockdown. Pacquiao got hit with the same shot before and didn't go down.

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He also got hit with a much harder shot before, and didn't go down...

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...and those are just a few examples. Now, the fight ending shot is a different story. That would have put him - or anyone else within reason - down and out at any time. But even before the knockout, and after the knockdown, Pac got hurt several times, more so than he has in previous fights with Juan. This shot came a little after he dropped Marquez in the 5th, and even it had Pac's legs shaky...

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I give JMM credit for the extra power he brought in, and the risky strategy of sitting on his shots more, but that was only about 15% of the factor. The rest was Pac's deterioration, plain and simple.

Pacquiao wasn't going to win that fight.

People are looking way too much into the success he was having. No way he was going to win that fight. Even as he was knocking Marquez around a bit, he was still getting tagged with hard counters and body shots, and those shots were hurting him more than they had in the previous fight. If Juan hadn't landed that shot in the 6th, he would have landed it eventually, or wore Pacquiao down and got a stoppage.


There is NO coming back from this for Pacquiao.

What can he possibly do, and by that, I mean, what realistically could he possibly do, and by realistically, I mean, he has a snowball's chance in hell against a Mayweather or Martinez, the only two wins as far as I can see, that could (somewhat) redeem that knockout. A fifth fight with Marquez would just be stupid. Pacquiao is NOT going to beat Marquez. They need to let sleeping dogs lie, as they should have after the third fight. Even if they fought again, and Pac won, all it would do is set up talks about a sixth fight. I mean, how long can we go on with this? It's over. I'm not even gonna talk about him going back to 140. Pacquiao had an incredible run, the best of the 00s, but it's over.

Marquez should retire.

He slayed his dragon. Found his white whale. He finally got his vindication, and should be proud. He should be satisfied. He should retire. He can't top this one, and he shouldn't have to. He toppled one of the biggest names in the sport, and in the most incrdible fashion he possibly could. He has nothing left to prove.

Most to blame for this? Bob Arum.

Horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE matchmaking. First, old ass Shane Mosley, which just gave Pac's critics ammo, then Tim Bradley, which was a textbook example of high risk, low reward, and then Marquez again? Someone who Pac's trainer - the guy who knows him best didn't even want to fight? Really? What the **** is wrong with Arum? I don't understand his logic when it comes to choosing fights for Pac. He doesn't seem to go for fights which would generate the most revenue, nor does he go for fights that would do anything for Pac's legacy, in picking no names like Clottey, old Mosley, and Bradley...and then he chooses someone who he HAS to know isn't good for his fighter? I really hope Pac fires him if he chooses to keep fighting.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:45 PM   #2
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

so, ton, u saying pac is overrated?

i think there is some fail play going in there. he never hurt pac in the 3rd fight and then now hes got kryptonite in his hands

plus how many 39 yos u know beating up on younger prime fighters? mosley was his age and he couldnt do it
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

15% percent was Marquez power and skill, the rest Pac is shot? Ok pactard whatever helps you sleep at night without tears.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing Fanatic View Post
so, ton, u saying pac is overrated?

i think there is some fail play going in there. he never hurt pac in the last fight and then now hes got kryptonite in his hands

plus how many 39 yos u know beating up on younger prime fighters?
I never said Pac is overrated, and this ascent to greatness he had since 2003 is legit, imo. And the reason why he didn't hurt Pac in III is because he was fighting more tentative. He wasn't sitting on his shots as much. He didn't train for power. As I said, all that accounts for some of why he was able to hurt Pac in IV.
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15% percent was Marquez power and skill, the rest Pac is shot? Ok pactard whatever helps you sleep at night without tears.
As I said - as I even gave visual examples - Pac took some of those same shots before and wasn't as badly hurt, the most clear example is the 3rd round knockdown. Pac got hit harder than that several times in the first and second fights, and even took that same shot in the third fight.

The reason why I don't give JMM more credit for his training is because you don't gain that much in such a short amount of time.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

Well I disagree with your point that Pac was on his way to losing anyway. Pac was practically dominating Marquez before the KO. He walked into a ridiculous shot that he literally tripped and fell right onto.

I do agree that his chin looks deteriorated; however, on the flipside he did look better then his last 3 fights. The aggression, the power, speed, was all there - though obviously not nearly to the level it was back when he was at the top.

Saying Pacquioo can't beat Marquez is silly when he was just whopping him and leading on the scorecards before being KO'd by a punch from hell.



As far as matchmaking goes. If your saying Pac has been matched with guys who are high risk / give him trouble, then that means he's been taking tough fights and that can only say good things about him.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtony80 View Post
I never said Pac is overrated, and this ascent to greatness he had since 2003 is legit, imo. And the reason why he didn't hurt Pac in III is because he was fighting more tentative. He wasn't sitting on his shots as much. He didn't train for power. As I said, all that accounts for some of why he was able to hurt Pac in IV.

As I said - as I even gave visual examples - Pac took some of those same shots before and wasn't as badly hurt, the most clear example is the 3rd round knockdown. Pac got hit harder than that several times in the first and second fights, and even took that same shot in the third fight.

The reason why I don't give JMM more credit for his training is because you don't gain that much in such a short amount of time.
1 Year 3 Months dedicated s&c and keeping in shape is not a little bit, ariza was jealous of Marquez techniqueand Wished he could do the same with Pac, but Pac is to busy to dedicate himself like Marquez has
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

don't you have any real friends you could discuss this with?
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak Boxer View Post
Well I disagree with your point that Pac was on his way to losing anyway. Pac was practically dominating Marquez before the KO. He walked into a ridiculous shot that he literally tripped and fell right onto.

I do agree that his chin looks deteriorated; however, on the flipside he did look better then his last 3 fights. The aggression, the power, speed, was all there - though obviously not nearly to the level it was back when he was at the top.

Saying Pacquioo can't beat Marquez is silly when he was just whopping him and leading on the scorecards before being KO'd by a punch from hell.



As far as matchmaking goes. If your saying Pac has been matched with guys who are high risk / give him trouble, then that means he's been taking tough fights and that can only say good things about him.
He wasn't dominating! He tagged JMM a few times, and was using a bit of a new strategy that had Juan slightly off, but he wasn't dominating. He was still eating counters and body shots. Even after knocking JMM down in the 5th, I was thinking it might end up being a 9-9 round (is that how they score it?) because Marquez was coming right back.

Like I said, that shot would have landed eventually if it hadn't landed when it did. Pacquiao was doing ok, and got excited. If the 3rd round knockdown didn't put enough sense into his head that he'd better be careful...
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

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Originally Posted by D_Andrade View Post
don't you have any real friends you could discuss this with?
Good point...discussing boxing on boxing website makes no sense at all. My bad.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

fair enough. i still think with his association with a known ped expert, there is definitely foul play involved. in the 3rd fight they were suppose to test but didnt happen. again they brought it up for #4, and nothing. i just dont think this is a coincidence that is happening. it is for a reason neither is get tested by a legitimate organization. its just all talk and no action
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

Some points

1. You're a Pactard looking for excuses
2. Marquez was all out going for the KO this time
3. Marquez was bigger/stronger/more explosive
4. Pac ran onto the KO shot doubling it's impact
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtony80 View Post
He wasn't dominating! He tagged JMM a few times, and was using a bit of a new strategy that had Juan slightly off, but he wasn't dominating. He was still eating counters and body shots. Even after knocking JMM down in the 5th, I was thinking it might end up being a 9-9 round (is that how they score it?) because Marquez was coming right back.

Like I said, that shot would have landed eventually if it hadn't landed when it did. Pacquiao was doing ok, and got excited. If the 3rd round knockdown didn't put enough sense into his head that he'd better be careful...
He won the 1st round , 2nd, arguably the 4th, dropped Marquez in the 5th, went on to lay a beatdown on him, and clearly was winning the 6th right up until he was KO.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

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He won the 1st round , 2nd, arguably the 4th, dropped Marquez in the 5th, went on to lay a beatdown on him, and clearly was winning the 6th right up until he was KO.
But he was still being countered. At no point did he have Marquez out on his feet and reluctant to throw. If he was hurting Marquez that much, then Marquez would have been thinking survival in the last seconds of the 6th. I don't think he would have tried to land that risky punch.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:26 PM   #14
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

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Originally Posted by Boxing Fanatic View Post
fair enough. i still think with his association with a known ped expert, there is definitely foul play involved. in the 3rd fight they were suppose to test but didnt happen. again they brought it up for #4, and nothing. i just dont think this is a coincidence that is happening. it is for a reason neither is get tested by a legitimate organization. its just all talk and no action
People said the same thing about peds and Pac after the Cotto fight. They wondered how he was able to move up in weight, and take those shots, and how he was able to hurt Cotto. I didn't buy into then, and I won't now.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: 5 points on Pacquiao - Marquez IV...

Pac got hit with the exact same punch in the 5th round as the ko punch in the 6th, and didn't go down. Does this mean he was somehow stronger in the 6th round? Of course not. It just shows that the dynamics of a punch cannot be measured by the eye alone. Every punch thrown is different.

Last edited by Smokin' Joe; 12-11-2012 at 06:30 PM.
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