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Old 04-01-2014, 12:15 AM   #691
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyblahblah View Post
Nay_Sayer:

You're close to making what's a fair and important criticism of the Ring and TBRB, but unfortunately you're getting the order of events wrong. Those who recognise Mayweather as current welterweight champion consider the championship to be filled not with Mayweather-Mosley, but with MOSLEY-MARGARITO in 2009.
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No question. There's a perfectly reasonable argument to be made that Mosley established a new lineage @ 147 with his victory over Margarito.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyblahblah View Post
If you look at the records of the top welterweights since Mayweather retired in 2008, Mosley-Margarito is indeed the only fight in which a serious case can be made as involving number 1 and 2. By May 2010 Pacquiao should have been and was considered by almost everyone as higher than Mayweather. Pacquiao had just come off two great wins over Cotto and Clottey, who were surely both top 10. While Mayweather had only fought once in two and a half years, and that against Marquez, a lightweight at the time. It's hard to make a case that Mayweather was higher than number 3 at the time. The rankings on that site you linked to were an exception to have Mayweather above Mosley, and can't be used for Pac's ranking because they're from February, and wouldn't have included his win over Clottey.
Again, everything you say is perfectly reasonable and I wouldn't argue against it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyblahblah View Post
It's the welterweight rankings in January 2009 that are much more contentious, and the key to the fatal flaw of the Ring and TBRB championships. Many considered Margarito and Mosley 1 and 2, but the Ring had Margarito and Cotto 1 and 2, so didn't consider Mosley-Margarito for the vacant championship. This piece of Cliff Rold's covers the debate about rankings at the time well, and shows how controversial the decision of the Ring's was.
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Margarito pretty clearly moved to number 1 when he beat Cotto, but the issue is whether Cotto should have been number 2, or should have moved further down and below Mosley. The thing is, if rankings are merely opinion-polls like the Ring or TBRB's, there will always be cases when number 2 and 3 are so close that deciding who can compete for a vacant championshp becomes arbitrary. If this is how rankings are made there therefore will never be clarity or consensus about lineal championships. Determining who can compete for a championship needs to be based on QUANTIFIABLE, widely accepted rankings.

I completely agree with you that the Ring should not be taken as some great historical authority on championships before 2012. The Ring's rankings, being subjective opinion have always been fallible and open to bias and manipulation, and in fact have been manipulated, with an egregious case being when they aligned themselves with Don King so he could promote Ring ranked fighters..
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Again, all perfectly reasonable. My main point of contention is ranking Pacquiao #1 @ 147 for having beat de la Hoya and Cotto. That shit doesn't make ANY sense whatsoever and I can't take anyone seriously who would defend such a ridiculous ranking...
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Old 04-01-2014, 07:17 AM   #692
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

Again, all perfectly reasonable. My main point of contention is ranking Pacquiao #1 @ 147 for having beat de la Hoya and Cotto. That shit doesn't make ANY sense whatsoever and I can't take anyone seriously who would defend such a ridiculous ranking...[/quote]

I'm a Pacquiao critic and think he was often carefully matched as he moved up in weight... but Cotto was an outstanding win over a true welterweight still in his prime and had to be highly regarded in rankings. If Mosley WASN'T already champion, it's pretty obvious that Pac, Mosley, Mayweather were top 3 in early 2010 based on fairly recent welterweight accomplishments. De la Hoya, Cotto, and Clottey were greater than Mosley's 2-1 record at 147 since 2005, and Mayweather's mere two wins in 2006 against legit welterweights at 147 in the same period.

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Old 04-01-2014, 07:56 AM   #693
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

Of course Pacquiao's ranking is irrelevant if Mosley was already champion when he fought Mayweather.

Last edited by qwertyblahblah; 04-01-2014 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:34 AM   #694
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

mike tyson i love you.
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Old 04-06-2014, 11:47 AM   #695
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

If Kazuto Ioka wins on May 7, will he enter the P4P rankings? He'll have been a three division champion in only 15 fights.

Also, Naoya Inoue beat Adrian Hernandez today. Hernandez was ranked #1 in the junior flyweight division. Don't forget to mention that this was only Inoue's 6th professional fight.
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Old 04-06-2014, 12:35 PM   #696
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

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If Kazuto Ioka wins on May 7, will he enter the P4P rankings? He'll have been a three division champion in only 15 fights.
VG-Addict! You're a good poster! Where's your head?

"Three-division champion" says who?

Ioka has never defeated a true champion and has never won a #1 vs. 2 match-up for a vacant throne. Let's step out of the make-pretend world of fake ratings and trick titles and look at boxing like serious men.
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Old 04-06-2014, 12:40 PM   #697
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

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VG-Addict! You're a good poster! Where's your head?

"Three-division champion" says who?

Ioka has never defeated a true champion and has never won a #1 vs. 2 match-up for a vacant throne. Let's step out of the make-pretend world of fake ratings and trick titles and look at boxing like serious men.
Gonzale, Ioka, Inoue surely more impressive than the Old 4 Hasbeens
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:40 AM   #698
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

Sorry if this is another dumb question but:

What if a fighter cleans out a division? Say he beats all the top 5 fighters in his division. Will he be the lineal champion then?
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Old 04-08-2014, 07:27 PM   #699
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

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Sorry if this is another dumb question but:

What if a fighter cleans out a division? Say he beats all the top 5 fighters in his division. Will he be the lineal champion then?
That's no dumb question, it's a critical one. There are two answers, both assuming that there is a vacant throne in the division.

The first answer is that a fighter ranked #1 or #2 who is stomping through a division like Godzilla, but avoids fighting the next best cannot be crowned. That wouldn't mean that he isn't the premiere fighter in the division, but it would mean that he is not the true champion, the division king (Again, bleep the bleeping belts). There must be rules of succession; and that is something boxing as gotten away from because of greed at the top and social-media's obsession with opinion -it's like a never-ending debate out there and guys take their own singular opinion as something weightier than it is. Nay-Sayer provides an immediate example of that in the past several pages of this thread.

An example of a premier fighter/non-champion is Mayweather. Although intelligent minds disagree about whether he should have been champion after beating Mosley, the fact is that he has avoided the next best, who was usually Pacquiao since he came out of retirement in 2009. He's the best WW, probably, but he isn't the champion as far as we're concerned because he failed to fight the next best. If he signs to fight the winner of Pacquiao-Bradley II, the chances are pretty good that the winner will be ranked second in the division, then the winner of that one will the welterweight king.

To be sure, Floyd is the Jr. MW king. Why? He fought the next best in the division. Canelo was the biggest risk he took in damn-near thirteen years if you ask me, and it was worth it. Floyd got himself a crown for it.

Another example is Jones. Jones may well have been the flashiest cherry-picker in history, but history will frown on him once boxing gets its collective head dislodged from its collective rump. Jones never fought the true champion or the next best at MW, SMW, or LHW. He was the premiere fighter in all three divisions which is big, but he ended up being a belt-collector without a throne, which is a damn shame.

The second and probably more fitting answer to your specific question is this: if a fighter beats the top five in the division, he will likely get ranked at 1 or 2 as soon as he whips #1 or #2, then he need only whip his next best rival to take a vacant throne.
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:08 PM   #700
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings

Updated P4P list:

1. Floyd Mayweather
2. Andre Ward
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Tim Bradley
5. Juan Manuel Marquez
6. Sergio Martinez
7. Carl Froch
8. Wlad Klitschko
9. Guillermo Rigondeaux
10. Danny Garcia
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Old 04-16-2014, 02:35 PM   #701
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings:Mayweather & Pacquiao 1,2 @ WW again

good to know!! now they should have bouts to prove the world who is THE BEST!
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:40 PM   #702
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings:Mayweather & Pacquiao 1,2 @ WW again

Hey all,
my thanks to McGrain and associates for starting this, a sound and comendable enterprise.
1 question though (and this is NOT a veiled dig at TBRB or Ward), I see A.Ward is #2 P4P still.
If Froch were to beat Groves and Chavez Jnr whilst Ward defends against a lower top 10 opponent @ SMW, would Ward still retain his P4P status above Froch? Even though many would consider Froch (should the two hypothetical victories happen) to be top in the SMW division?
How long is one allowed to "live off" former accomplishments before they are dropped in your rankings?
I know you allow for weight changes and injuries to an extent but it grates on me slightly that such an inactive fighter as Ward is hailed so highly P4P still.
How long could he remain inactive for and still be in your P4P list? 2 more years? Seems a bit much......

Thanks again for making the effort and your general input to the forum.
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Old 04-18-2014, 04:21 PM   #703
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings:Mayweather & Pacquiao 1,2 @ WW again

Quote:
Originally Posted by FartWristedBum View Post
Hey all,
my thanks to McGrain and associates for starting this, a sound and comendable enterprise.
1 question though (and this is NOT a veiled dig at TBRB or Ward), I see A.Ward is #2 P4P still.
If Froch were to beat Groves and Chavez Jnr whilst Ward defends against a lower top 10 opponent @ SMW, would Ward still retain his P4P status above Froch? Even though many would consider Froch (should the two hypothetical victories happen) to be top in the SMW division?
How long is one allowed to "live off" former accomplishments before they are dropped in your rankings?
I know you allow for weight changes and injuries to an extent but it grates on me slightly that such an inactive fighter as Ward is hailed so highly P4P still.
How long could he remain inactive for and still be in your P4P list? 2 more years? Seems a bit much......

Thanks again for making the effort and your general input to the forum.
First a disclaimer --P4P List shouldn't be taken too seriously. They are an inexact science and often worse. There are different approaches to them which prejudice the results in no small way. Some will approach them as H2H hypotheticals (which I think is crazy); others will look at recent resume and still others consider overall resume (which really should pertain only to to ATG P4P Lists, lest Hopkins be our #1!)

We tend to look a recent resume, though "recent" is relative term. Some members tend to look at ring generalship though, which explains why Mayweather is #1. When we were fighting this out, Ward was very close to Floyd for the #1 slot --I was in that camp.

Ward cleaned out a division and has proven to be a dominant king. That defeat of the legit Light Heavyweight king was no small matter either. As for Froch -Froch looked less than he was against Groves but had help from a friend in a striped shirt. That's hardly an argument to see him rise in the rankings. And let's be honest -Froch isn't beating Ward unless Ward gets pneumonia mid-fight.

We have to consider that Ward has no one left in the division to fight. A lesser champion without the tourney that launched Ward would be boasting about being undefeated without half the contenders on Ward's resume. And if the media's chronic and often ****-eyed celebration of Mayweather is any hint, we'd all be saying "Amen."

We don't have a hard & fast rule about when a P4P guy drops down, but you can count on guys overtaking him eventually, despite the above excuses. Just because we don't automatically drop a guy after 8 months of inactivity doesn't mean his place is reserved.
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Old 04-19-2014, 05:33 AM   #704
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings:Mayweather & Pacquiao 1,2 @ WW again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post

Ward cleaned out a division and has proven to be a dominant king. That defeat of the [i]legit Light Heavyweight king[/I] was no small matter either. As for Froch -Froch looked less than he was against Groves but had help from a friend in a striped shirt. That's hardly an argument to see him rise in the rankings. And let's be honest -Froch isn't beating Ward unless Ward gets pneumonia mid-fight.

We have to consider that Ward has no one left in the division to fight. A lesser champion without the tourney that launched Ward would be boasting about being undefeated without half the contenders on Ward's resume. And if the media's chronic and often ****-eyed celebration of Mayweather is any hint, we'd all be saying "Amen."

We don't have a hard & fast rule about when a P4P guy drops down, but you can count on guys overtaking him eventually, despite the above excuses. Just because we don't automatically drop a guy after 8 months of inactivity doesn't mean his place is reserved.
OK fair enough, seems like p4p is not subject to the same mathematical scrutiny as the other rankings, that's cool, I would NEVER suggest I have either the drive nor capability to do these rankings anyway, just wanted to throw some questions out there in the spirit of fair play. Thanks for the quick response 'Stone Hands'.

A couple of points to consider perhaps (in bold) in the interest of fairness.

1) Ward never beat the "legit LHW king", otherwise he would have got legit LHW status, something he hasn't achieved. Dawson was a super-middle weight contender the night they fought.

2) Not sure Froch could never beat Ward, he wasn't close to getting stopped in my view and holds a good finishing instinct. He's by no means a favourite hypothetically, but a no-hoper he is not. Point being, styles-make-fights and just because you beat someone else vying for p4p shouldn't mean you can 'piggy-back' on their success against other fighters and sensibly remain above them IMO.

3) Ward has beaten good fighters yes, I agree, so have plenty of other boxers not on your p4p list though.....

4) Eventually could be a long time, 8 months of inactivity true, I'm not suggesting any change in the rankings per se, but aside from the inactivity, Ward has fought a contender in Dawson (since no unification was happening) and Rodriguez.
Bit unfair to say that beating George Groves is worth no rise in the rankings when Groves arguably would beat a 168 Dawson and Rodriguez also.

Anyway, cheers for the response, I'm really nit-picking and as you say p4p is a bit of a laugh really so please don't think I'm having a dig.

Thanks again
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Old 04-19-2014, 08:08 AM   #705
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Default Re: The Transnational Boxing Rankings:Mayweather & Pacquiao 1,2 @ WW again

Those are good welter rankings.
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