Rate these greats on a 1-10 scale....

[DaveTheWave]

Rate these fighters if you will on a 1-10 scale, whichever you want, and I would like serious input (preferably from the real historans and scholars, and from anyone who considers themselves to know enough to unput.

The criteria (if I am leaving anything crucial out let me know):

Power
Handspeed
Stamina (conditioning)
Durability
Chin
Movement
Ring Generalship
Elusiveness (how hard they were to hit)
Arsenal (variety of punches and ability to utilize them)


The fighters:

Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey
Floyd Patterson
Mike Tyson
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles

All in their respective primes, on their best nights...
Again, input on those you wish, as I wouldn't expect anyone to complete this list in its entirety.

[RoccoMarciano]

You already left out will!

[Marciano Frazier]

Originally Posted by DaveTheWave

Rate these fighters if you will on a 1-10 scale, whichever you want, and I would like serious input (preferably from the real historans and scholars, and from anyone who considers themselves to know enough to unput.

The criteria (if I am leaving anything crucial out let me know):

Power
Handspeed
Stamina (conditioning)
Durability
Chin
Movement
Ring Generalship
Elusiveness (how hard they were to hit)
Arsenal (variety of punches and ability to utilize them)


The fighters:

Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey
Floyd Patterson
Mike Tyson
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles

All in their respective primes, on their best nights...
Again, input on those you wish, as I wouldn't expect anyone to complete this list in its entirety.

Well, for crucial criteria you're leaving out, you ignored all the mental aspects of the game, which Teddy Atlas would tell you is 75% of boxing. Determination, focus, ring intelligence, etc. are every bit as important in a fight as a lot of the physical attributes you listed above. You could probably group them into "Mental strength" or somesuch.

Size would also be a factor for consideration in the heavyweight division.

Of course these are all estimates, and I would probably come up with slightly different versions if you asked me to do this again on a different day.


Ali
Power- 6.5
Handspeed- 9.5
Stamina (conditioning)- 9
Durability- 9.5
Chin- 9.5
Movement- 10
Ring Generalship- 9
Elusiveness (how hard they were to hit)- 9
Arsenal (variety of punches and ability to utilize them)- 6.5

Foreman
Power- 10
Handspeed- 6
Stamina (conditioning)- 5.5
Durability- 9
Chin- 9
Movement- 5
Ring Generalship- 9
Elusiveness (how hard they were to hit)- 6
Arsenal (variety of punches and ability to utilize them)- 9

Frazier
Power- 8.5
Handspeed- 8.5
Stamina- 10
Durability- 8.5
Chin- 7.5
Movement- 7.5
Ring Generalship- 8.5
Elusiveness- 7
Arsenal- 5.5

Louis
Power- 9
Handspeed- 9
Stamina- 9
Durability- 7.5
Chin- 7
Movement- 7
Ring Generalship- 8.5
Elusiveness- 7
Arsenal- 10

Marciano
Power- 9.5
Handspeed- 6.5
Stamina- 10
Durability- 9
Chin- 9
Movement- 6
Ring Generalship- 9
Elusiveness- 6
Arsenal- 9

Dempsey
Power- 9
Handspeed- 8.5
Stamina- 8
Durability- 8.5
Chin- 8
Movement- 8
Ring Generalship- 9
Elusiveness- 7.5
Arsenal- 9.5

So, off those criteria you listed, which I do believe are considerably incomplete in assessing a fighter's total make-up, and which I think should be weighted (for example, since elusiveness and movement are going to be separate categories, they really shouldn't both be worth 10, because it really favors the boxer-mover types), the scores of the fighters I just listed were (in order from highest to lowest):
Ali with 78.5, Dempsey with 76, Marciano and Louis with 74 apiece, Frazier with 72.5, and Foreman with 68.5.
And if we added categories like mental strength and size, these totals would also change.

[Ezzard]

Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier

Well, for crucial criteria you're leaving out, you ignored all the mental aspects of the game, which Teddy Atlas would tell you is 75% of boxing. Determination, focus, ring intelligence, etc. are every bit as important in a fight as a lot of the physical attributes you listed above. You could probably group them into "Mental strength" or somesuch.

Size would also be a factor for consideration in the heavyweight division.

Of course these are all estimates, and I would probably come up with slightly different versions if you asked me to do this again on a different day.


Ali
Power- 6.5
Handspeed- 9.5
Stamina (conditioning)- 9
Durability- 9.5
Chin- 9.5
Movement- 10
Ring Generalship- 9
Elusiveness (how hard they were to hit)- 9
Arsenal (variety of punches and ability to utilize them)- 6.5

Foreman
Power- 10
Handspeed- 6
Stamina (conditioning)- 5.5
Durability- 9
Chin- 9
Movement- 5
Ring Generalship- 9
Elusiveness (how hard they were to hit)- 6
Arsenal (variety of punches and ability to utilize them)- 9

Frazier
Power- 8.5
Handspeed- 8.5
Stamina- 10
Durability- 8.5
Chin- 7.5
Movement- 7.5
Ring Generalship- 8.5
Elusiveness- 7
Arsenal- 5.5

Louis
Power- 9
Handspeed- 9
Stamina- 9
Durability- 7.5
Chin- 7
Movement- 7
Ring Generalship- 8.5
Elusiveness- 7
Arsenal- 10

Marciano
Power- 9.5
Handspeed- 6.5
Stamina- 10
Durability- 9
Chin- 9
Movement- 6
Ring Generalship- 9
Elusiveness- 6
Arsenal- 9

Dempsey
Power- 9
Handspeed- 8.5
Stamina- 8
Durability- 8.5
Chin- 8
Movement- 8
Ring Generalship- 9
Elusiveness- 7.5
Arsenal- 9.5

So, off those criteria you listed, which I do believe are considerably incomplete in assessing a fighter's total make-up, and which I think should be weighted (for example, since elusiveness and movement are going to be separate categories, they really shouldn't both be worth 10, because it really favors the boxer-mover types), the scores of the fighters I just listed were (in order from highest to lowest):
Ali with 78.5, Dempsey with 76, Marciano and Louis with 74 apiece, Frazier with 72.5, and Foreman with 68.5.
And if we added categories like mental strength and size, these totals would also change.

I think these ratings and the rationale are very, very good.

The only small detail I'd argue voer would be marciano-dempsey power scores. Both should be high but Jack scored a lot of one punch KO's over the contenders of the day. he had great technique and scored clean knockouts. Rocky had to hit Cockell with the stool on the back of the head to get rid of him. Rocky could and did score his share of single shot punches but take the image of Jersey Joe out of your mind for a moment and Rocky's 1 shot power was not quite as good as jack's (but it was close).

[TBooze]

Muhammad Ali

Power: 6
Hand speed: 8.5
Stamina: 9.5
Durability: 9.5
Chin: 7
Recovery Powers: 9.5
Movement: 8
Ring Generalship: 9
Elusiveness: 8
Arsenal: 8
Overall on the above Criteria: 8.3

George Foreman


Power: 9
Hand speed: 5
Stamina: 7
Durability: 8
Chin: 8
Recovery Powers: 7
Movement: 4
Ring Generalship: 8
Elusiveness: 3
Arsenal: 7
Overall on the above Criteria: 6.6

Joe Frazier


Power: 8
Hand speed: 6.5
Stamina: 8
Durability: 7
Chin: 7
Recovery Powers: 6.5
Movement: 7
Ring Generalship: 5
Elusiveness: 5
Arsenal: 6
Overall on the above Criteria: 6.6

Joe Louis


Power: 9
Hand speed: 8.5
Stamina: 8.5
Durability: 8.5
Chin: 6
Recovery Powers: 8
Movement: 6
Ring Generalship: 7.5
Elusiveness: 5
Arsenal: 8
Overall on the above Criteria: 7.5

Sonny Liston


Power: 9
Hand speed: 7
Stamina: 6
Durability: 6
Chin: 7
Recovery Powers: 6
Movement: 6
Ring Generalship: 7
Elusiveness: 5
Arsenal: 7
Overall on the above Criteria: 6.8


Lennox Lewis


Power: 8.5
Hand speed: 8
Stamina:6
Durability: 5
Chin: 6
Recovery Powers: 5
Movement: 7.5
Ring Generalship: 9
Elusiveness: 7
Arsenal: 8
Overall on the above Criteria: 7
:
Larry Holmes

Power: 6
Hand speed: 8
Stamina: 9
Durability: 8
Chin: 7
Recovery Powers: 9
Movement: 7.5
Ring Generalship: 9.5
Elusiveness: 7
Arsenal: 8
Overall on the above Criteria: 7.9 :

[Marciano Frazier]

Originally Posted by Ezzard

I think these ratings and the rationale are very, very good.

The only small detail I'd argue voer would be marciano-dempsey power scores. Both should be high but Jack scored a lot of one punch KO's over the contenders of the day. he had great technique and scored clean knockouts. Rocky had to hit Cockell with the stool on the back of the head to get rid of him. Rocky could and did score his share of single shot punches but take the image of Jersey Joe out of your mind for a moment and Rocky's 1 shot power was not quite as good as jack's (but it was close).

No, you have it backwards. Marciano scored knockouts with one punch or one series of punches far more often than Dempsey did against elite opposition. Dempsey himself stated during Marciano's title reign that he believed Rocky to have been a harder hitter than he was. In Marciano's early big fights- before he stopped swinging for the fences with single shots and started concentrating on volume in the later portion of his title reign- he showed freakish one-punch power. Layne was put out with one shot, Louis was decked with one shot and then taken out with a handful of well-placed follow-ups, Matthews was blasted out by a double left hook, Walcott was taken out with one shot twice- Marciano was decapitating people. It was Dempsey who had to bounce his opponents off the floor like basketballs en route to the knockout more often than Marciano.

[Amsterdam]

Tyson
Power- 9
Handspeed- 10
Stamina (conditioning)- 7
Durability- 9
Chin- 9
Movement- 10
Ring Generalship- 8
Elusiveness (how hard they were to hit)- 9
Arsenal (variety of punches and ability to utilize them)- 8

Overall - 8.7

Uh oh, looks like the overrated Tyson scores higher than the rest mentioned.

[Marciano Frazier]

Originally Posted by Amsterdam

Tyson
Power- 9
Handspeed- 10
Stamina (conditioning)- 7
Durability- 9
Chin- 9
Movement- 10
Ring Generalship- 8
Elusiveness (how hard they were to hit)- 9
Arsenal (variety of punches and ability to utilize them)- 8

Overall - 8.7

Uh oh, looks like the overrated Tyson scores higher than the rest mentioned.

Only because you used different standards. If Ali only gets an 8.5 for handspeed and an 8 for movement (as he did on TBooze's list), then Tyson certainly doesn't merit 10s in them (as he gets on your list).

And as I said before, the list ignores criteria like heart, ring intelligence, and size, none of which Tyson would do terribly well in compared with most other champions.

[Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier

Only because you used different standards. If Ali only gets an 8.5 for handspeed and an 8 for movement (as he did on TBooze's list), then Tyson certainly doesn't merit 10s in them (as he gets on your list).

And as I said before, the list ignores criteria like heart, ring intelligence, and size, none of which Tyson would do terribly well in compared with most other champions.

Tyson has faster hands than Ali and also moved quicker and was a better defender on top of it, if anybody wants to be unbiased, they will easily spot that.

[Holmes' Jab]

Muhammad Ali:

Power: 6.5
Hand speed: 9.5
Stamina: 9
Durability: 9
Chin: 9
Recovery Powers: 8
Movement: 9.5
Ring Generalship: 9
Elusiveness: 8
Arsenal: 8


George Foreman:

Power: 9
Hand speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Durability: 8.5
Chin: 8.5
Recovery Powers: 7
Movement: 4
Ring Generalship: 8
Elusiveness: 4
Arsenal: 8


Joe Frazier:

Power: 8.5
Hand speed: 7
Stamina: 9.5
Durability: 9
Chin: 7
Recovery Powers: 7
Movement: 8
Ring Generalship: 6
Elusiveness: 8
Arsenal: 8


Joe Louis:

Power: 9.5
Hand speed: 9
Stamina: 8
Durability: 7
Chin: 6
Recovery Powers: 8
Movement: 6
Ring Generalship: 7
Elusiveness: 7
Arsenal: 9.5


Sonny Liston:

Power: 9
Hand speed: 7
Stamina: 6
Durability: 9
Chin: 8
Recovery Powers: 6
Movement: 7
Ring Generalship: 8
Elusiveness: 6
Arsenal: 9


Lennox Lewis:

Power: 9
Hand speed: 8
Stamina: 7
Durability: 7
Chin: 7
Recovery Powers: 6
Movement: 8
Ring Generalship: 8
Elusiveness: 7
Arsenal: 9


Larry Holmes:

Power: 7.5
Hand speed: 8
Stamina: 8
Durability: 9
Chin: 9
Recovery Powers: 9.5
Movement: 8
Ring Generalship: 9
Elusiveness: 7
Arsenal: 8

[Addie]

Muhammad Ali

Power: 6
Hand speed: 9.5
Stamina: 9.5
Durability: 9
Chin: 9.5
Recovery Powers: 9.5
Movement: 9.5
Ring Generalship: 9
Elusiveness: 9
Arsenal: 7