Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Dempsey fought John Lester Johnson, got his ribs broke and his lilly white ass beat, and avoided black fighters like some sort of plague afterward, even when they were his number one contender for 5 years.

Yeah, I guess I am serious.

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by rusak

you're in agreement with yourself

good

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I'm not sure Dempsey was the greatest offensive machine ever up to his time, never mind up to more recently.
But he looks to be far too much for the likes of James Toney, from where I'm sitting anyway.

Toney's one of those fighters who gets over-rated for his cute moves. People tend to ignore the times he gets hit or his glaring flaws, because when his cute moves work it looks so easy, and so cute.

I watched his fight with Jirov recently. And that was a good performance. But no way can I see that guy beating a Dempsey. He's hardly got any legs, what's he going to do ? Jirov hurt him a few times with body shots, I hate to think what Dempsey would do to that fat belly.
Dempsey was described as a 'mauler' quite aptly. You can only be so cute when you're standing toe to toe with a mauler, and there's no doubt that Dempsey will be able to close on Toney. Ugly often beats cute.
Guys like Tunney and Gibbons were tough men and clever boxers but they knew better than to attempt to fight Dempsey without a lot of foot movement. They didn't stand a chance going to the ropes and trying to counter punch.
Toney's going to be standing on the ropes, tryin to be cute and pot-shot, and he'll get eaten up by a very vicious 190 pound fighter.

that's how I see it, but I picked Toney by SD because I thought he would land the cleaner, flashier shots while Dempsey would be more active, but less spectacular, much like Jirov in fact

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

As per Fleischer who watched both men in training and was at ringside for the fight....Willard was fit as anyone who ever fought for the hwt championship the day he fought Johnson. He absorbed a horrible beating and did not wilt and came back to ko the great champion. Today it's typical to put Wilard down and not appreciate this accomplishment. Not many in boxing history that could absorb that kind of beating the first 20 rounds and come back to win by ko in the 26th.

Unfortunately, Dempsey fought him four years later when he wasn't in such fine form, had fought only one bout in the interim (three years before) and was 37 years old.

[lufcrazy]

No way on gods green earth would Dempsey stop Toney.

He might overwhelm him and win on points but he ain't getting a stoppage.

For the record I would pick the holy Toney beat over the Willard Dempsey beat. Jirov, rahman, Guinn, Ruiz and Peter probably give jacks heavyweight resume a good run for their money too.

I do pick jack on points though with Toney finishing fairly strong.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders

In full disclosure, my ass is most likely whiter than Dempsey's was.

[Boilermaker]

I think the 190 is a terrible catch weight.

the Catch weight should be 175. Dempsey would have to train down. Toney could come in great shape close to his best.

Toneys best wins at the weight include Nunn, McCallum and Williams but he has quite a few losses there including Jones, Griffin and Thadzi.

Dempseyhas the better wins over light heavys with his dominance of Gibbons, Carpentier, Levinski as well as wins over others who were only slightly over the light heavy weight limit including Miske and Gunboat Smith.

Of course the equalise is that Dempsey would have to drop the weight and that is an unknown. Without the catchweight, Ironically, Toney might be the heavier fighter but he is not in the same class as Dempsey and his record proves it. He might survive but that is far from guaranteed. Dempsey was simply too good. Even pound for pound i think that Dempsey proved himself ahead of toney.

[Boilermaker]

Just a question for the toney fans. If it was an open fight, how much does Toney weigh for the fight? and which version of toney that did actually fight gives him the best shot at beating Dempsey. Is i the Holy tyson or a younger fitter but lighter version or some other version?

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by orriray59

Willard was shit. Lumbering oaf who threw himself off balance with every drunken, pathetic swing. Couldn't defend himself. Bumbled forward with no really apparent purpose, swinging like a crude farmhand who'd learned to box in his backyard.

and yet, we are still forced to hear comparisons to the klitschkos on here...

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

I think Toney would win many rounds and frustrate Dempsey pretty well, I won´t say he would win the fight though...because I think Dempsey would eventually find a way to win...

[HOUDINI]

First no way toney ever lasts 5 rounds with prime Dempsey. Dempsey takes his head off. Willard was never bought of as a great fighter. He was in incredible condition, fit enough to fight the world as per Fleischer, and his trainers had him fight an excellent game plan to win the fight vs Johnson. Willard had a great jab and a right hand that could ko anyone. We could argue technique all night long. The Klits are walking statues.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by orriray59

Willard was shit. Lumbering oaf who threw himself off balance with every drunken, pathetic swing. Couldn't defend himself. Bumbled forward with no really apparent purpose, swinging like a crude farmhand who'd learned to box in his backyard.

Well at least Dempsey has some wins over world class heavyweights.
Toney has close to zero.

The same people who denigrate Dempsey for not meeting every to contender of his era, will desperately scratch around to find a single world class win for Toney at that weight, and then hold it up as if there is somehow something to compare!

Willard is exactly the kind of quality win Toney never achieved at that weight!

People trying to big up Toney’s heavyweight resume should not talk trash about Willard, unless they are trying to embarrass themselves.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

No way on gods green earth would Dempsey stop Toney.

This is a totally unwarranted assertion.

Toney never shred a ring with anybody close to being as good a finisher as Dempsey was.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

As per Fleischer who watched both men in training and was at ringside for the fight....Willard was fit as anyone who ever fought for the hwt championship the day he fought Johnson.

Again, this is FOUR YEARS before he faced Dempsey.

The Willard that faced Dempsey hadn't fought in 3 years, was 37 years old and stupidly over confident. Unlike, say an old Larry Holmes, he had no great skillset to fall back on. His physicality was all he had.

Do you see the disconnect in your logic or do we need a to draw a diagram?

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Again, this is FOUR YEARS before he faced Dempsey.

The Willard that faced Dempsey hadn't fought in 3 years, was 37 years old and stupidly over confident. Unlike, say an old Larry Holmes, he had no great skillset to fall back on. His physicality was all he had.

Do you see the disconnect in your logic or do we need a to draw a diagram?

So how many world class heavyweights did Toney beat, who were 37 years old, stupidly overconfident, or lacking a great skillset?