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Old 02-07-2008, 03:17 AM   #1
Amsterdam
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Default Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

...From his #1 or #2 spot at HW.

And it isn't because this generation is going to be producing any phenom's anytime soon, it's because the post-Ali era of HW's are going to be regarded better and better with time and people are going to realise how overly glorified Louis' record is.

Ali is already generally ranked over Louis, but Louis for many still ranks as #1, which is ludicris when Ali is both better H2H and has a resume that crushes Louis' and virtually any other HW.

Honestly, Louis could easily be brought down to about #5 if people weren't such romanticism fanatics for old time greats. His H2H ability is very low and his resume is not as strong as some others.

Louis will suffer the same, fully legitimate fate in his ranking status as the much overrated Jack Dempsey has fallen way down as boxing fans have become more intelligent and have more access to history.

Then, sooner or later a divide from archaic boxing and modern professional boxing will be made and we'll have two separate ways to rank fighters. This will all happen in 20 years or so.

Discuss.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:27 AM   #2
fists of fury
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

No.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Yes Louis will eventually go down in rankings in the next 20-40 years, the same way Ali might go down the ratings in about 60 years. It happens because later generations generally tend to have a bias against old timers or they think fighters from their generation are superior etc etc

Still

Louis tko any heavwyeight today
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:36 AM   #4
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

I hope not,even though I expect the modern monstrosities-"heavyweight's" to generally come out on top.Still-I don't expect any of them to be on top for say,12 years and 25 defenses.And as far as moving currently ATG heavy's off the top,politics aside-I got Louis rated way above Ali.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

I'm not reading that propoganda
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Maybe in the future boxing fans will "become more intelligent" and realize that "all-time ratings lists" are a complete joke, and stop bleating on about who goes where in "the ratings" .........
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaywilton
I hope not,even though I expect the modern monstrosities-"heavyweight's" to generally come out on top.Still-I don't expect any of them to be on top for say,12 years and 25 defenses.And as far as moving currently ATG heavy's off the top,politics aside-I got Louis rated way above Ali.


Fighters tend to fall off as time passes. However, Louis is a genuine hero, a media favorite and a very good fighter. I think his legacy will remain intact for a long time.

If you look at legacies the way baseball does, Louis has some great numbers.

If you prefer head-to-head match up based on films, styles, strenghts and weaknesses, I think Louis is top 4 or 5, and will be falling as time passes.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

His legacy stands like a rock and it's not going anywhere. 60 years later he's still ranked #1 or #2 consistently. Outside of Ali, other boxers' resumes just don't hold up in comparison. No matter how many years go by, Holmes will never break the 11 year championship reigning record, Lewis will always be haunted by his two knockout losses, Dempsey won't have the amount of contenders beaten that Louis had, Marciano would lack the longevity, Holyfield the consistency.... obviously it's subjective, but Louis scores maximum in almost any category, accomplishment-wise.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
His legacy stands like a rock and it's not going anywhere. 60 years later he's still ranked #1 or #2 consistently. Outside of Ali, other boxers' resumes just don't hold up in comparison. No matter how many years go by, Holmes will never break the 11 year championship reigning record, Lewis will always be haunted by his two knockout losses, Dempsey won't have the amount of contenders beaten that Louis had, Marciano would lack the longevity, Holyfield the consistency.... obviously it's subjective, but Louis scores maximum in almost any category, accomplishment-wise.
I agree with this post. An athlete who played such a huge role in changing and shaping his persepective sport in much the same way that say Babe Ruth shaped baseball will never lose his greatness.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:35 AM   #10
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
...From his #1 or #2 spot at HW.

And it isn't because this generation is going to be producing any phenom's anytime soon, it's because the post-Ali era of HW's are going to be regarded better and better with time and people are going to realise how overly glorified Louis' record is.

Ali is already generally ranked over Louis, but Louis for many still ranks as #1, which is ludicris when Ali is both better H2H and has a resume that crushes Louis' and virtually any other HW.

Honestly, Louis could easily be brought down to about #5 if people weren't such romanticism fanatics for old time greats. His H2H ability is very low and his resume is not as strong as some others.

Louis will suffer the same, fully legitimate fate in his ranking status as the much overrated Jack Dempsey has fallen way down as boxing fans have become more intelligent and have more access to history.

Then, sooner or later a divide from archaic boxing and modern professional boxing will be made and we'll have two separate ways to rank fighters. This will all happen in 20 years or so.

Discuss.
I don't think it will be permanent. Your generation may provincially rate the fighters of your era higher, but with time your generation also will pass away. I think Louis will settle in as one of the top two heavyweights of the 20th century. He reigned longer than anyone else, defended his title more often than anyone else, defended against the best challengers (except when prevented by WWII) and proved superior to any rival until he reached 36. Historians will be impressed, in my opinion.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Joe Louis is the 2nd best heavyweight of all time, get over it.

Discussion over
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Let me put it this way: it may well always be that, if you're arguing that heavyweight 'X' is the greatest heavyweight of all time -- and 'X' isn't Joe Louis -- it will be incumbent upon you to state why you believe 'X' was better than Joe. (Ditto Ali).

Also, I think the notion of resume is somewhat misused. You just can't fight guys who aren't there. Your resume shows that you're great -- but it doesn't make you great. If you think some guys is the greatest ever, based on resume . . . well, what if he fought at another time, . . . and was just as good . . . but the opponents weren't there? Is he suddenly no longer the greatest?
What is legitimate is: 1) criticizing a guy for not fighting outstanding contenders; 2) not dealing with his opponents in the way his reputation would suggest.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Amsterdam is right, but it could likely take a hundred years for it to definitively happen.

Unlike Dempsey, though, Louis is (un)fortunate enough that we have alot of good film of him. We can evaluate Louis on film and come to our own conclusions, while we have to rely on conflicting eyewitness reports about Dempsey.
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Maybe in the future boxing fans will "become more intelligent" and realize that "all-time ratings lists" are a complete joke, and stop bleating on about who goes where in "the ratings" .........
Phat chance i think.......but one can always hope!
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Honestly, Louis could easily be brought down to about #5 if people weren't such romanticism fanatics for old time greats.
No he couldnt.

Outside of Ali no heavyweight could even theoreticaly be ranked higher than him based on acomplishment.

25 succesfull title defences and 32 wins over curently ranked contenders.

Its not just that no other heavyweight aside from Ali can match this resume you would be hard put to find sombody who could match half of it. Nobody else even comes close. I rather doubt that anybody will in the forseable future because the political climate would not alow a champion to fight to such a schedule.

These are the facts. I appreciate that you dont like these facts but they wont go away sadly.

All the speculation that fighter A might have beaten Louis wont change them and it can only ever be speculation.

Last edited by janitor; 02-07-2008 at 03:31 PM.
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