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Old 02-07-2008, 02:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
Yes Louis will eventually go down in rankings in the next 20-40 years, the same way Ali might go down the ratings in about 60 years. It happens because later generations generally tend to have a bias against old timers or they think fighters from their generation are superior etc etc

Still

Louis tko any heavwyeight today
No way he KOs wlad,just no way in hell he does
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:33 PM   #17
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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No way he KOs wlad,just no way in hell he does
Why not?

It clearly dosnt take a great fighter to do it.
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Louis is number 1 and he will be for a long long time.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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Originally Posted by mike464
Ricky Hatton is number 1 and he will be for a long long time.
I'm sorry, Ricky Hatton was never even a real elite fighter, void.

Last edited by janitor; 02-02-2007 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

I'd give em both joint 1st place
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:34 PM   #21
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Maybe in the future boxing fans will "become more intelligent" and realize that "all-time ratings lists" are a complete joke, and stop bleating on about who goes where in "the ratings" .........
All ratings are ultimately opinion, even present day ones...

Boxing is built on a foundation of opinion, everytime there is a points decision to be made, just for starters.

Unless we go down the path of fencing, much like amateur boxing is, hopefully that will never change.

All time ratings are a joke, but they are fun; and surely life is a joke? After all ***ual intercourse is (normally) fun; but labour a complete sod. Surely if life was meant to be serious, it would be the other way round?
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:09 PM   #22
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
...From his #1 or #2 spot at HW.

And it isn't because this generation is going to be producing any phenom's anytime soon, it's because the post-Ali era of HW's are going to be regarded better and better with time and people are going to realise how overly glorified Louis' record is.

Ali is already generally ranked over Louis, but Louis for many still ranks as #1, which is ludicris when Ali is both better H2H and has a resume that crushes Louis' and virtually any other HW.

Honestly, Louis could easily be brought down to about #5 if people weren't such romanticism fanatics for old time greats. His H2H ability is very low and his resume is not as strong as some others.

Louis will suffer the same, fully legitimate fate in his ranking status as the much overrated Jack Dempsey has fallen way down as boxing fans have become more intelligent and have more access to history.

Then, sooner or later a divide from archaic boxing and modern professional boxing will be made and we'll have two separate ways to rank fighters. This will all happen in 20 years or so.

Discuss.
The least you could've done was made a case for your point. You basically just said he wasn't good enough and his resume wasn't good enough, with no evidence to back it up. Louis absolutely belongs at #2 as far as I'm concerned. HW champion for 12 years, 26 title defenses, wins over the likes of Walcott, Conn, Schmeling, Bivins, Baer(both), Savold, McCoy, Farr, Braddock, Sharkey, Carnera, etc.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:27 PM   #23
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
The least you could've done was made a case for your point. You basically just said he wasn't good enough and his resume wasn't good enough, with no evidence to back it up. Louis absolutely belongs at #2 as far as I'm concerned. HW champion for 12 years, 26 title defenses, wins over the likes of Walcott, Conn, Schmeling, Bivins, Baer(both), Savold, McCoy, Farr, Braddock, Sharkey, Carnera, etc.
Impressive?
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:30 PM   #24
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Impressive?
Much more impressive than the likes of Kessler, Lacy, Bika, Manfredo, Veit, Mitchell, and Shieka.

What is the point you're trying to make with that post? Of course it's impressive.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Impressive?
8 lineal champions and 32 ranked contenders.

Yes that is about as impresive as you can get.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Much more impressive than the likes of Kessler, Lacy, Bika, Manfredo, Veit, Mitchell, and Shieka.

What is the point you're trying to make with that post? Of course it's impressive.
But do I claim that Calzaghe is even in the top 50 P4P? No.

Louis is a consensus #2 or #1 HW and often a consensus top 20 P4P, so therefore we look at things a little more critically.

I'd argue that the way he defeated some of those names wasn't impressive. Loss to Schmeling wasn't impressive, though the rematch answered all on the fact.

Behind in Walcott, Charles, Conn, correct?

Where is the elite skill that I hear about, I've never been impressed with his skill level, or his opponent's skill level, save for a few like Charles and Walcott, who look okay on film.

The Farr fight particularly irritated me, as Farr was open to be hit at all times due to having no guard and just using subtle movement, any guy with good timing would have put him away immediatley, but Louis couldn't fire off counter shots at certain points that would have allowed such.
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
But do I claim that Calzaghe is even in the top 50 P4P? No.
That is just as well really.

Quote:
Louis is a consensus #2 or #1 HW and often a consensus top 20 P4P, so therefore we look at things a little more critically.
Top 2 at heavyweight is prety much a given.

Top 20 pound for pound is more questionable. Personaly I dont rank any heavyweight that highly pound 4 pound.

Quote:
I'd argue that the way he defeated some of those names wasn't impressive. Loss to Schmeling wasn't impressive, though the rematch answered all on the fact.
How many all time greats have been put in the ring with a former champion like Schmeling around the middle of their second year as a profesional fighter?

You have to make some allowence for the circumstances.

Quote:
Behind in Walcott, Charles, Conn, correct?
Yes he was.

The reason that Louis retained his title for so long was that he found a way to win against oponents like that when he was behind. Foreman and Liston for contrast didnt so they had enbarasing losses rather than enbarasing close calls.

Quote:
Where is the elite skill that I hear about, I've never been impressed with his skill level,
Then you are verry much in the minority.

That is honestly about as good as a heavyweight ever really gets to be skill wise.

Quote:
The Farr fight particularly irritated me, as Farr was open to be hit at all times due to having no guard and just using subtle movement, any guy with good timing would have put him away immediatley, but Louis couldn't fire off counter shots at certain points that would have allowed such.
Farr was not easy to hit by any means and when he was his chin was pure granite.

Incidentaly his style is a lot like Calzaghe in some ways.
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:01 PM   #28
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Much more impressive than the likes of Kessler, Lacy, Bika, Manfredo, Veit, Mitchell, and Shieka.

What is the point you're trying to make with that post? Of course it's impressive.
Don't disrespect Calzaghe, you'll upset Amsterdam.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
Yes Louis will eventually go down in rankings in the next 20-40 years, the same way Ali might go down the ratings in about 60 years. It happens because later generations generally tend to have a bias against old timers or they think fighters from their generation are superior etc etc

Still

Louis tko any heavwyeight today
I think Ali is the exception. I think the longer time goes on, the more his #1 spot is even more cemented.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:49 PM   #30
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Default Re: Joe Louis will eventually be moving down...

I think every heavyweight champion tends to decline once the people who saw them first hand die off. If Ali is going to be an exception (and fighters post Ali) it will be because of reliable film. Ali is the first champ where you can watch the majority of his fights easily.
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