Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

I dont understand your point with regards to mcTigue. According to Boxrec he was a middleweight when he fought greb.

McTigue was an alphabet champion at worst. Realistically, if there were four titles and multiple divisions, at worst McTigue wins a share of the super middleweight title. Realistically, he also wins a middleweight title and maybe even a unification bout or two. He is a world champion fighter and a high quality one, by todays standards.

I am not really taking issue with the other points you make regarding Grebs performance at the weight. Greb is one of the greatest ever at this weight, there is no doubt of that. I do think though that there are other greats who are often overlooked and some times Grebs record could do with a little scrutinisation. I dont think it is as flawless as often portrayed by some, though to placate Burt, i have to confess that outside of Fitzsimmons, i dont think that any other middleweight could have done what he did so it is a tough one. Just to put things into context, i am not one hundred percent certain that Greb rips through his competition the way Ketchell did for example in fact i am confident he doesnt because he woudl leave too much up to the judges to decide.

Here is another side point. In todays environment, Harry Greb might have a losing record, as a don king fighter. He wouldnt be allowed to fight the heavys, was unlikely to get the pull of the judges due to a perceived lack of power. And his unorthodox style would be percieved as a weakness by the internet crowds. With a losing record, he would presumably rarely get a break by judges, meaning maybe, just maybe such a great talent would barely succeed in todays environment.

Volume punchers always do well with the judges.

[lufcrazy]

I agree with leeway when discussing greats in a class .

So like any fight were both are between 157 and 164 I'd call a MW fight. Maybe more leeway back then.

But Greb fighting Tunney is proof of his greatness as a lhw, not a mw, for me anyways.

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

I agree with leeway when discussing greats in a class .

So like any fight were both are between 157 and 164 I'd call a MW fight. Maybe more leeway back then.

But Greb fighting Tunney is proof of his greatness as a lhw, not a mw, for me anyways.

But greb beat tunney while weighing 162.

[Brownies]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

But Greb fighting Tunney is proof of his greatness as a lhw, not a mw, for me anyways.

I think of it the same way you do, so I understand your logic.

However, we are saying that :

1- Greb, Monzon and Hagler were all middleweights

2- Greb was the better boxer pound for pound.

3- Monzon and Hagler were better middleweights.

The arguments are there, but maybe we are overthinking it because it's a strange conclusion. Maybe Greb was the greatest. I know his story is the better one.

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

Mike mctigue was a middleweight who happened to win the light heavy title. You dont seem to know much about these fighters or the times but you think you can judge them based on faulty understanding of their careers and a need to compartmentalize them in neat little weight classes. In reality their careers were more complex.

Now for s--ts and giggles go back and look over mctigues record and tell my why this light heavy didnt start weighing significantly more, and often less than the mw limit until after he lost his light heavy title?

You don't seem to get it do you... hence why you didn't address my Duran Analogy either... If Greb or the guy he was fighting weighed MORE than the MW.. HOW THE F.. does that count towards Greb's MW record? Why because the fighter he beat at one point was a MW and has weighed in as much? Really? Sorry that isn't how it works. You also not understanding another basic point that pickbacks off the point above.... Fighters fight at a number of weights throughout their careers... Numerous examples of such.. Sam L, Duran, Money May etc etc... Just cause Duran had a few fights at MW doesn't mean that was his prime best weight.. and in the example of McTigue... MW WASN'T HIS BEST WEIGHT. Why you say, oh I don't know, maybe cause he won a belt at that weight.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

But greb beat tunney while weighing 162.

And what did Tunney weigh?

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Brownies

I think of it the same way you do, so I understand your logic.

However, we are saying that :

1- Greb, Monzon and Hagler were all middleweights

2- Greb was the better boxer pound for pound.

3- Monzon and Hagler were better middleweights.

The arguments are there, but maybe we are overthinking it because it's a strange conclusion. Maybe Greb was the greatest. I know his story is the better one.

We're saying monzon and Hagler achieved more in the mw division but Greb achieved more in his overall career.

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

You don't seem to get it do you... hence why you didn't address my Duran Analogy either... If Greb or the guy he was fighting weighed MORE than the MW.. HOW THE F.. does that count towards Greb's MW record? Why because the fighter he beat at one point was a MW and has weighed in as much? Really? Sorry that isn't how it works. You also not understanding another basic point that pickbacks off the point above.... Fighters fight at a number of weights throughout their careers... Numerous examples of such.. Sam L, Duran, Money May etc etc... Just cause Duran had a few fights at MW doesn't mean that was his prime best weight.. and in the example of McTigue... MW WASN'T HIS BEST WEIGHT. Why you say, oh I don't know, maybe cause he won a belt at that weight.

Considering he won his belt at light heavy, while a miidleweight id say it clearly supports his middleweight status.

You completely ignorr the reasoning behind catchweights matches.

I dont adress all of your points because you dont know what you are talking about. You keep comparing apples to oranges.

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

And what did Tunney weigh?

My point is that a middleweight beating bigger fighters adds to his middleweight legacy.

Nobody considers Roy Jones a heavyweight discussing his bout against Ruiz and he weighed more in that fight than jack demosey ever did.

Had hagler whipped spinks weighing 162 would we be discussing how great he was as a light heavy? Nope. Wed say it adds to his legacy as a career middleweight.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

My point is that a middleweight beating bigger fighters adds to his middleweight legacy.

Nobody considers Roy Jones a heavyweight discussing his bout against Ruiz and he weighed more in that fight than jack demosey ever did.

Had hagler whipped spinks weighing 162 would we be discussing how great he was as a light heavy? Nope. Wed say it adds to his legacy as a career middleweight.

No beating a lightheavyweight adds to your lightheavyweight legacy.

Jones beat Ruiz in a heavyweight fight, does squat for his achievements at lhw.

Had Monzon beat Spinks he'd have been LHW champ, that helps his LHW legacy not his MW.

Floyd beating DLH and Cotto is not a benefit to his WW legacy. Same way Greb beating Tunney affects his LHW greatness not his MW greatness.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

Considering he won his belt at light heavy, while a miidleweight id say it clearly supports his middleweight status.

You completely ignorr the reasoning behind catchweights matches.

I dont adress all of your points because you dont know what you are talking about. You keep comparing apples to oranges.

LT.You are 100% logically correct...If Harry Greb under 160 pounds in his prime beat the likes of Mike Gibbons, Eddie McGoorty,Brian Downey, Frank Moody,Tiger Flowers, Johnny Wilson, George Chip, Buck Crouse, Frank Mantell etc, all terrific MWS, Greb should somehow be discredited for
heroic feats of whipping some alltrime great Light heavyweghts in history,while weighing a few pounds over 160 pounds. ? If a Monzon, a Hagler beat the best of the middleweights of their time and had the courage and skills to challenge 175 pounders and beat them, why wouldn't
Greb, Monzon, Hagler or Joe Blow , give in to a little more eating, a little less roadwork, a little more pleasures ,and indulge themselves whilst coming in at over 160 pounds ,and still get the job done....? Harry Greb was a MW when he started and after 290 bouts or so still fought under 160
pounds whenever he HAD TO...

[lufcrazy]

He isn't discredited!

It's just that I see him as a top 3 lhw as well as a top 3mw.

How anyone can call that discredit is a discredit in itself!

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

He isn't discredited!

It's just that I see him as a top 3 lhw as well as a top 3mw.

How anyone can call that discredit is a discredit in itself!

If Greb beat the best middleweights of HIS time, and to keep money on the table, was great enough to beat HOF lightheavyweights repeatedly,
shouldn't that give him points over any middleweight including Monzon
or Hagler, who were as big or taller than Greb, but knew their limitations
challenging the top lightheavyweights and hws of THEIR TIME ?
Shouldn't the fact that Greb had the unique abilities to beat bigger and more powerful great fighters than he, show that he had remarkable talents that allowed him to whip the best fighters at catch-weights, whilst still
beating a Mickey Walker at 158 in his 290th bout. ? On this feat alone Greb has to be #1 as MW, H2H...

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

If Greb beat the best middleweights of HIS time, and to keep money on the table, was great enough to beat HOF lightheavyweights repeatedly,
shouldn't that give him points over any middleweight including Monzon
or Hagler, who were as big or taller than Greb, but knew their limitations
challenging the top lightheavyweights and hws of THEIR TIME ?
Shouldn't the fact that Greb had the unique abilities to beat bigger and more powerful great fighters than he, show that he had remarkable talents that allowed him to whip the best fighters at catch-weights, whilst still
beating a Mickey Walker at 158 in his 290th bout. ? On this feat alone Greb has to be #1 as MW, H2H...

H2H he's nowhere as we cannot see him fight so cannot gauge his skillset.

Those wins over lhw fighters make him a great lhw. Those wins over mw fighters make him a great mw.

Hagler achieved more in the division, Greb achieved more in his overall career from mw to hw.

[Nate 2011]

Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Sugar Ray Robinson
Stanley Ketchel
Mel Greb
Carlos Monzon

Note: In five to seven years time Bernard Hopkins & Sergio Martinez will close in on my top ten greatest middleweights of all time!