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Old 01-31-2013, 03:15 PM   #241
lufcrazy
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

I agree with leeway when discussing greats in a class .

So like any fight were both are between 157 and 164 I'd call a MW fight. Maybe more leeway back then.

But Greb fighting Tunney is proof of his greatness as a lhw, not a mw, for me anyways.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:36 PM   #242
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
I agree with leeway when discussing greats in a class .

So like any fight were both are between 157 and 164 I'd call a MW fight. Maybe more leeway back then.

But Greb fighting Tunney is proof of his greatness as a lhw, not a mw, for me anyways.
But greb beat tunney while weighing 162.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:40 PM   #243
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
But Greb fighting Tunney is proof of his greatness as a lhw, not a mw, for me anyways.
I think of it the same way you do, so I understand your logic.

However, we are saying that :

1- Greb, Monzon and Hagler were all middleweights

2- Greb was the better boxer pound for pound.

3- Monzon and Hagler were better middleweights.

The arguments are there, but maybe we are overthinking it because it's a strange conclusion. Maybe Greb was the greatest. I know his story is the better one.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:45 PM   #244
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Mike mctigue was a middleweight who happened to win the light heavy title. You dont seem to know much about these fighters or the times but you think you can judge them based on faulty understanding of their careers and a need to compartmentalize them in neat little weight classes. In reality their careers were more complex.

Now for s--ts and giggles go back and look over mctigues record and tell my why this light heavy didnt start weighing significantly more, and often less than the mw limit until after he lost his light heavy title?
You don't seem to get it do you... hence why you didn't address my Duran Analogy either... If Greb or the guy he was fighting weighed MORE than the MW.. HOW THE F.. does that count towards Greb's MW record? Why because the fighter he beat at one point was a MW and has weighed in as much? Really? Sorry that isn't how it works. You also not understanding another basic point that pickbacks off the point above.... Fighters fight at a number of weights throughout their careers... Numerous examples of such.. Sam L, Duran, Money May etc etc... Just cause Duran had a few fights at MW doesn't mean that was his prime best weight.. and in the example of McTigue... MW WASN'T HIS BEST WEIGHT. Why you say, oh I don't know, maybe cause he won a belt at that weight.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:47 PM   #245
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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But greb beat tunney while weighing 162.
And what did Tunney weigh?
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:48 PM   #246
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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I think of it the same way you do, so I understand your logic.

However, we are saying that :

1- Greb, Monzon and Hagler were all middleweights

2- Greb was the better boxer pound for pound.

3- Monzon and Hagler were better middleweights.

The arguments are there, but maybe we are overthinking it because it's a strange conclusion. Maybe Greb was the greatest. I know his story is the better one.
We're saying monzon and Hagler achieved more in the mw division but Greb achieved more in his overall career.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:36 PM   #247
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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You don't seem to get it do you... hence why you didn't address my Duran Analogy either... If Greb or the guy he was fighting weighed MORE than the MW.. HOW THE F.. does that count towards Greb's MW record? Why because the fighter he beat at one point was a MW and has weighed in as much? Really? Sorry that isn't how it works. You also not understanding another basic point that pickbacks off the point above.... Fighters fight at a number of weights throughout their careers... Numerous examples of such.. Sam L, Duran, Money May etc etc... Just cause Duran had a few fights at MW doesn't mean that was his prime best weight.. and in the example of McTigue... MW WASN'T HIS BEST WEIGHT. Why you say, oh I don't know, maybe cause he won a belt at that weight.
Considering he won his belt at light heavy, while a miidleweight id say it clearly supports his middleweight status.

You completely ignorr the reasoning behind catchweights matches.

I dont adress all of your points because you dont know what you are talking about. You keep comparing apples to oranges.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:40 PM   #248
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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And what did Tunney weigh?


My point is that a middleweight beating bigger fighters adds to his middleweight legacy.

Nobody considers Roy Jones a heavyweight discussing his bout against Ruiz and he weighed more in that fight than jack demosey ever did.

Had hagler whipped spinks weighing 162 would we be discussing how great he was as a light heavy? Nope. Wed say it adds to his legacy as a career middleweight.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:48 PM   #249
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
My point is that a middleweight beating bigger fighters adds to his middleweight legacy.

Nobody considers Roy Jones a heavyweight discussing his bout against Ruiz and he weighed more in that fight than jack demosey ever did.

Had hagler whipped spinks weighing 162 would we be discussing how great he was as a light heavy? Nope. Wed say it adds to his legacy as a career middleweight.
No beating a lightheavyweight adds to your lightheavyweight legacy.

Jones beat Ruiz in a heavyweight fight, does squat for his achievements at lhw.

Had Monzon beat Spinks he'd have been LHW champ, that helps his LHW legacy not his MW.

Floyd beating DLH and Cotto is not a benefit to his WW legacy. Same way Greb beating Tunney affects his LHW greatness not his MW greatness.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:59 PM   #250
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Considering he won his belt at light heavy, while a miidleweight id say it clearly supports his middleweight status.

You completely ignorr the reasoning behind catchweights matches.

I dont adress all of your points because you dont know what you are talking about. You keep comparing apples to oranges.
LT.You are 100% logically correct...If Harry Greb under 160 pounds in his prime beat the likes of Mike Gibbons, Eddie McGoorty,Brian Downey, Frank Moody,Tiger Flowers, Johnny Wilson, George Chip, Buck Crouse, Frank Mantell etc, all terrific MWS, Greb should somehow be discredited for
heroic feats of whipping some alltrime great Light heavyweghts in history,while weighing a few pounds over 160 pounds. ? If a Monzon, a Hagler beat the best of the middleweights of their time and had the courage and skills to challenge 175 pounders and beat them, why wouldn't
Greb, Monzon, Hagler or Joe Blow , give in to a little more eating, a little less roadwork, a little more pleasures ,and indulge themselves whilst coming in at over 160 pounds ,and still get the job done....? Harry Greb was a MW when he started and after 290 bouts or so still fought under 160
pounds whenever he HAD TO...
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:01 PM   #251
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

He isn't discredited!

It's just that I see him as a top 3 lhw as well as a top 3mw.

How anyone can call that discredit is a discredit in itself!
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:24 PM   #252
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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He isn't discredited!

It's just that I see him as a top 3 lhw as well as a top 3mw.

How anyone can call that discredit is a discredit in itself!
If Greb beat the best middleweights of HIS time, and to keep money on the table, was great enough to beat HOF lightheavyweights repeatedly,
shouldn't that give him points over any middleweight including Monzon
or Hagler, who were as big or taller than Greb, but knew their limitations
challenging the top lightheavyweights and hws of THEIR TIME ?
Shouldn't the fact that Greb had the unique abilities to beat bigger and more powerful great fighters than he, show that he had remarkable talents that allowed him to whip the best fighters at catch-weights, whilst still
beating a Mickey Walker at 158 in his 290th bout. ? On this feat alone Greb has to be #1 as MW, H2H...
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:28 PM   #253
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
If Greb beat the best middleweights of HIS time, and to keep money on the table, was great enough to beat HOF lightheavyweights repeatedly,
shouldn't that give him points over any middleweight including Monzon
or Hagler, who were as big or taller than Greb, but knew their limitations
challenging the top lightheavyweights and hws of THEIR TIME ?
Shouldn't the fact that Greb had the unique abilities to beat bigger and more powerful great fighters than he, show that he had remarkable talents that allowed him to whip the best fighters at catch-weights, whilst still
beating a Mickey Walker at 158 in his 290th bout. ? On this feat alone Greb has to be #1 as MW, H2H...
H2H he's nowhere as we cannot see him fight so cannot gauge his skillset.

Those wins over lhw fighters make him a great lhw. Those wins over mw fighters make him a great mw.

Hagler achieved more in the division, Greb achieved more in his overall career from mw to hw.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:34 PM   #254
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Sugar Ray Robinson
Stanley Ketchel
Mel Greb
Carlos Monzon

Note: In five to seven years time Bernard Hopkins & Sergio Martinez will close in on my top ten greatest middleweights of all time!
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:49 PM   #255
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
My point is that a middleweight beating bigger fighters adds to his middleweight legacy.

Nobody considers Roy Jones a heavyweight discussing his bout against Ruiz and he weighed more in that fight than jack demosey ever did.

Had hagler whipped spinks weighing 162 would we be discussing how great he was as a light heavy? Nope. Wed say it adds to his legacy as a career middleweight.
This. Most of those fights above the MW limit were against fellow MWs doing the same. They were not considered LHWs, just MWs fighting a couple pounds above. Greb fought against many fellow middles in which one or both contestants weighed in above the MW limit, yet neither the press or anyone else considered these bouts to be between "two LHWs". This includes his bouts with Jeff Smith, Gus Christie, Joe Chip, Jimmy Darcy, Fay Keiser, Brian Downey, Tiger Flowers (first fight), Augie Ratner, Johnny Wilson (one of them), Allentown Joe Gans and many others. ALL were considered MWs fighting at catchweight. None were LHW contenders when Greb fought them. They were MW contenders

These wins should not be counted as achievements at LHW.
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