Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

[Lord Tywin]

I just dont understand how it cannot be a benefit to his legacy as a middleweight when the guy was a career middleweight, fought his last bout as a middleweight in an era of same day weigh ins, and managed to fight successfully against much larger fighters.

I will say again, nobody considers Roy Jones heavyweight, even for that one fight against Ruiz and he weighed 199 pounds. They use that fight, against one of the weakest heavyweight champions in history, to enhance his legacy in the lower weights. The difference is that Greb did the same thing, much more often, and against better fighters.

I agree that he should also be considered a light heavyweight. I have no problem with that. But the fact that he basically vacationed at light heavyweight and heavyweight so successfuly while a middleweight means this was one terrific middleweight.

Just because he didnt dry out a few extra pounds does not mean he magically grew in to a light heavyweight for a few fights and then magically contracted back into middleweight body.

I'll take that over two guys whose biggest wins came by feasting on smaller fighters.

I also find strange the idea that if Hagler weighed 162 and beat Spinks we would suddenly consider him a light heavyweight, or somehow bisect that one fight from his body of work and say that somehow he had two careers, one as a light heavy and the rest as a middle.

I still say it shows real lack of understanding of the conditions of the sport back then. These fighters fought often, full time. They did not have the benefit of six months away from work and three month training camps to make weight. The made weight when the had to and the rest of the time it was all about putting on good, competetive fights for the fans. Something sadly lost today for the most part.

Had a man like Greb had 36 hours between a weigh in and a fight, six months between fights, and all the perks they have today I dont doubt that he could have been a junior middleweight or maybe smaller.

The way I see it is some fans of Hagler, Robinson, Monzon and others realize that Greb set a nearly ridiculous standard to try to stack up against and really the only way to compete against that is by saying "wait a minute now, if you split Harry Greb's wins apart along strict lines of what weight class his opponent was fighting in and whether Harry Greb weighed a pound or two over the limit, and a lot of other standards we dont hold any other fighter to, then suddenly his middleweight record doesnt look as impressive." Meanwhile they are willing to use the exact opposite logic in regards to Walker to take away from his win over Walker.

To that I say, if you look at Greb as a career middleweight, which he was, and look at his stellar competition against whom he won far more often than not, its pretty hard for anyone to say this wasnt arguably the greatest middleweight in history. Its hard to argue that Monzon and Hagler's accomplishments dont stand deep in the shadows of Greb's.

[recycling]

Has anyone seen greb training? Cuz that wasn't atg

[Surf-Bat]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

I just dont understand how it cannot be a benefit to his legacy as a middleweight when the guy was a career middleweight, fought his last bout as a middleweight in an era of same day weigh ins, and managed to fight successfully against much larger fighters.

I will say again, nobody considers Roy Jones heavyweight, even for that one fight against Ruiz and he weighed 199 pounds. They use that fight, against one of the weakest heavyweight champions in history, to enhance his legacy in the lower weights. The difference is that Greb did the same thing, much more often, and against better fighters.

I agree that he should also be considered a light heavyweight. I have no problem with that. But the fact that he basically vacationed at light heavyweight and heavyweight so successfuly while a middleweight means this was one terrific middleweight.

Just because he didnt dry out a few extra pounds does not mean he magically grew in to a light heavyweight for a few fights and then magically contracted back into middleweight body.

I'll take that over two guys whose biggest wins came by feasting on smaller fighters.

I also find strange the idea that if Hagler weighed 162 and beat Spinks we would suddenly consider him a light heavyweight, or somehow bisect that one fight from his body of work and say that somehow he had two careers, one as a light heavy and the rest as a middle.

I still say it shows real lack of understanding of the conditions of the sport back then. These fighters fought often, full time. They did not have the benefit of six months away from work and three month training camps to make weight. The made weight when the had to and the rest of the time it was all about putting on good, competetive fights for the fans. Something sadly lost today for the most part.

Had a man like Greb had 36 hours between a weigh in and a fight, six months between fights, and all the perks they have today I dont doubt that he could have been a junior middleweight or maybe smaller.

The way I see it is some fans of Hagler, Robinson, Monzon and others realize that Greb set a nearly ridiculous standard to try to stack up against and really the only way to compete against that is by saying "wait a minute now, if you split Harry Greb's wins apart along strict lines of what weight class his opponent was fighting in and whether Harry Greb weighed a pound or two over the limit, and a lot of other standards we dont hold any other fighter to, then suddenly his middleweight record doesnt look as impressive." Meanwhile they are willing to use the exact opposite logic in regards to Walker to take away from his win over Walker.

To that I say, if you look at Greb as a career middleweight, which he was, and look at his stellar competition against whom he won far more often than not, its pretty hard for anyone to say this wasnt arguably the greatest middleweight in history. Its hard to argue that Monzon and Hagler's accomplishments dont stand deep in the shadows of Greb's.

Post of the month

[lufcrazy]

What utter bullshit. You show me any post of mine where I've used the opposite standards on other fighters.

You show me a post where I've argued Jones's lhw greatness on the basis of a fight he had in the hw division, 20 pounds north if the limit.

You show me a post where I've argued walker a better welterweight based on his exploits at lhw.

You show me any post backing up the shite you've just chirped.

You trying to dismiss this as simple fan boy stuff is pathetic. I will repeat that p4p I have Greb in my top 3 fighters, Monzon and Hagler are nowhere near that level.

I have Greb in my top 3 lhw, Monzon and Hagler are nowhere that level. I'd post my notes on which fights I believe contribute to his lhw legacy but I can't be arsed due to your blinkered waffle that refuses to comprehend other criteria.

Perhaps I'll try that tact with you. Call you a fan boy for refusing to give Greb his due credit as a lhw. For flying in the face of standards you use on countless other fighters. Perhaps I'll say it's your way of defending guys like tunney and gibbons because they're seen as natural light heavyweight fighters.

where do you rate Greb as a lhw?

[Senya13]

Using the same criteria, Ted Kid Lewis is one of the greatest lightweights in history based on resume. Who cares that he fought mostly at welterweight limit or even as a middleweight, he could make 135 if he had to, as he had done multiple times, reducing or taking on a dozen pounds between fights on a regular basis.

[McGrain]

I think his lhw resume is flat-out better than his mw resume i'm afraid. And if he's fighting a fighter who ACHIEVED at LHW despite being known best as a middleweight AND Greb beat that fighter above the MW limit I will absolutely include that as being a gain for his LHW resume rather than his MW.

[janitor]

Unless you dismissed any fights where one of the fighters was an ounce north of the middleweight limit, Harry Geb’s middleweight resume would be as untouchable for Haglerzon as his light heavyweight resume.

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Using the same criteria, Ted Kid Lewis is one of the greatest lightweights in history based on resume. Who cares that he fought mostly at welterweight limit or even as a middleweight, he could make 135 if he had to, as he had done multiple times, reducing or taking on a dozen pounds between fights on a regular basis.

Except for the fact that Ted Kid was not a career lightweight and didnt identify himself as such.

But lets look at that. Ted Kid Lewis fought a lot of middleweights and light heavyweights. Do we ever call him a middleweight or a light heavyweight? No. Do we rank him at those weights? No. We say "wow this welterweight was able able to compete with the big boys. That says a lot about his ability."

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by janitor

Unless you dismissed any fights where one of the fighters was an ounce north of the middleweight limit, Harry Geb’s middleweight resume would be as untouchable for Haglerzon as his light heavyweight resume.

I disagree. I too think his win list at lhw is clearly better than that at mw.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

I disagree. I too think his win list at lhw is clearly better than that at mw.

How many people could boast a better list of middleweights than this:

Mickey Walker
Jeff Smith
George Chip
Mike O'Dowd
Jack Dillon
Tiger Flowers
Mike Gibbons
Johny Wilson
Edie McGoorty
Al McCoy

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by janitor

How many people could boast a better list of middleweights than this:

Mickey Walker
Jeff Smith
George Chip
Mike O'Dowd
Jack Dillon
Tiger Flowers
Mike Gibbons
Johny Wilson
Edie McGoorty
Al McCoy

You misread my post.

I said I think he has a better lhw resume than he does at mw.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

You misread my post.

I said I think he has a better lhw resume than he does at mw.

Perhaps his trure talent lay at 168lbs.

Then as in recent years, that would have been where a lot of the talent fell.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by janitor

Perhaps his trure talent lay at 168lbs.

Then as in recent years, that would have been where a lot of the talent fell.

Well that was in the LHW division back then.

[burt bienstock]

To not give due honors to a Harry Greb who beats the top middleweights of his era and the top lightheavyweights, is akin to saying that a thorougbred race horse who beats
the best horses in his weghtclass,then challenges and BEATS horses who carry 10 pounds or less weights on their backs, would not be considered superior to horses that
never challenge other horses with less weight ? That is how betting odds are established
and on this basis Greb had more in the tank than any middleweight ever...

[lufcrazy]

Burt, you do a great disservice in denying Greb his well earned plaudits as a great light heavyweight.