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Old 12-31-2012, 02:12 PM   #121
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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People must be alowed to make up their own minds that Greb was the greatest middleweight of all time.
Define middleweight.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:19 PM   #122
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Greb
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:24 PM   #123
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Lord Twynn hasnt been around long enough to really know

it is fact that going into the Mugabi fight, KO listed Hagler's best wins as: Alan Minter, Tony Sibson, Caveman Lee, Wilford Scypion, Thomas Hearns

I'm throwing in Hamsho b/c Hamsho has big wins himself: Watts, Czyz, Benitez, Parker, Scypion, Minter

I havent been around long enough? On this forum or watching boxing?

I was working on satellite transmissions of international boxing broadcasts before Marvin Hagler ever laced on a boxing glove.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:39 PM   #124
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
luf, if fighting and beating bigger LHs and Hws that Harry Greb is not important to you well here is SOME of the middleweights Greb fought and beat...Just a few.
Mickey Walker
Tiger Flowers
Johnny Wilson
Frank Moody
Eddie McGoorty
Soldier Bartfield
Zulu Kid
Brian Downey
George Chip
Al McCoy
Jeff Smith
Roland Todd
Leo Houck
Jack Blackburn
Frank Mantell
Mike Gibbons
Frank Mantell,etc
Many were champions and compare favorably with who Monzon and Hagler beat and to keep active the fearless Greb took on everyone and anyone
he could fight regardless of weight, style or colour...He was considered
always as a MW who made 160 pounds whenever he had to fight at 160 pounds...
P.S. This is what the great LH Tommy Loughran said of Harry Greb :
" in my day the woods were full of great fighters - and on top of the heap
sat Harry Greb". And almost every great opponent of Greb concurred...
I know which fights Greb had in the mw division. Not as impressive as Hagler
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:51 PM   #125
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by redrooster
Lord Twynn hasnt been around long enough to really know
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Yeah, I've seen many, many choices that differ in regards to Hagler, taking various points about his opponents into account: their own record/standing, what they were at the time Hagler fought them, what Hagler was when he fought them (in arguing Mugabi a top five win), etc. With Monzon, I'd say the two livest were Valdez and Briscoe, though Benvenuti and Griffith are going to be included as well.

.. And I think Tywin was around, so his reply is going to be interesting.
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I havent been around long enough? On this forum or watching boxing?

I was working on satellite transmissions of international boxing broadcasts before Marvin Hagler ever laced on a boxing glove.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:42 PM   #126
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Haglers best wins were over welterweights and lightweights. Should we consider those irrelevent? If so he has a pretty thin resume.

Monzon fought in one of the weakest eras of the division how do we rate that?
Tell me which of his victories where against guys weighing less that 148 pounds.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:34 PM   #127
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Hands of Iron View Post
Yeah, I've seen many, many choices that differ in regards to Hagler, taking various points about his opponents into account: their own record/standing, what they were at the time Hagler fought them, what Hagler was when he fought them (in arguing Mugabi a top five win), etc. With Monzon, I'd say the two livest were Valdez and Briscoe, though Benvenuti and Griffith are going to be included as well.

.. And I think Tywin was around, so his reply is going to be interesting.
Lord Twynn may have been around but no doubt was infuenced much by hearsay

I would say that I myself was influenced by the sports and boxing press except that the idea of establishing Hagler as best p4p, I beat KO to it by around two years.

most people who werent around then dont even know it was the win over Sibson that made Hagler a somebody. The general soprts fan thinks he was just happened to be the middleweight champ at the time Duran iaccepted the challenge

I'm pretty sure that's what Lord Twynn thinks
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:35 PM   #128
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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I havent been around long enough? On this forum or watching boxing?

I was working on satellite transmissions of international boxing broadcasts before Marvin Hagler ever laced on a boxing glove.
then why is it I know so much more than you?
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Old 12-31-2012, 05:24 PM   #129
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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I know which fights Greb had in the mw division. Not as impressive as Hagler
C'mon Luf. I'm a Hagler fan, but Marvin does not have a single win that even remotely compares with Greb's wins over Walker, let alone Gibbons and several others.
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:01 PM   #130
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by redrooster View Post
Lord Twynn may have been around but no doubt was infuenced much by hearsay

I would say that I myself was influenced by the sports and boxing press except that the idea of establishing Hagler as best p4p, I beat KO to it by around two years.

most people who werent around then dont even know it was the win over Sibson that made Hagler a somebody. The general soprts fan thinks he was just happened to be the middleweight champ at the time Duran iaccepted the challenge

I'm pretty sure that's what Lord Twynn thinks
Have you seen Monzon, Duran, Willie Monroe, Briscoe, Minter, Bouttier, tonna (to name a few) live? I have.

Im not arguing Greb was better or worse but to split hairs over what division his opponents fought in when he was making middleweight at the end of his career is a silly point of contention.

How many fights at 160the did Duran, Leonard, Hearns, and Mugabi have and against who?
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:53 PM   #131
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
Have you seen Monzon, Duran, Willie Monroe, Briscoe, Minter, Bouttier, tonna (to name a few) live? I have.

Im not arguing Greb was better or worse but to split hairs over what division his opponents fought in when he was making middleweight at the end of his career is a silly point of contention.

How many fights at 160the did Duran, Leonard, Hearns, and Mugabi have and against who?
okay so u saw some live fights. I saw Ernesto Espana & Art Frias at the olympic auditorium, live. did you?

How did you have Hagler ranked among the sport's elite after the Sibson fight?

following that night, it impressed the boxing fraternity enough that Hagler won 147/150 first place votes based on that one fight alone and shot up from 4th place to 1st from the year before. Now here he was a nearly unanimous choice by almost everyone

Have you ever given that any thought? I bet alot of posters here didnt realize that

you have to understand that Marvin has to have already pulled off one or two big wins before the Hearns fight, even if they werent highly publicized matches. and it was that fight along with the win over Hamsho that set Marvin apart from your ordinary middleweights like Hopkins, those kind of people

so when you say beating a couple welterweights were his biggest accomplishments, you are way off. one big win over hearns isnt going to be enough for this thread
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:02 PM   #132
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

When did Hagler fight Espana and Frias?

The fact that you think Sibson and Hamsho are big wins for Hagler and better wins than Leonard, Duran, and Hearns is odd when you go around acting like the grand poobah of boxing.

Sibson and Hamsho were pedestrian contenders at best.

Haglers win over Sibson wasnt so impressive as how he won over him. He treated Sibson exactly like what he was, a regional talent, and outfought him at every step of the game. That says something about Hagler but it says a lot more about Sibson.

I didnt think it rocketed him to the top of boxings greatest middleweights. Thats like saying Monzon's wins over Briscoe and Griffith in the mid 1970s cemented his greatness. Or like saying Robinson's KO of Graziano cemented his legacy, or his decision over Fusari? Youve chosen two of his middle-of-the-road defenses and somehow built them into something defining.

Now in hindsight, with proper perspective those wins look even less impressive as neither fighter accomplished much after Hagler stopped them.

If you really believe those are Haglers best wins at middleweight then we can check him off of this discussion altogether. Im curious if you really believe those were better, or more defining victories than his wins over Duran, Hearns, and Mugabi.

We can just leave off the fact that he lost to a guy who had never fought above 154 and was fighting his first fight in years. Although you already seem to discount that and feel it was Hagler who was at a disadvantage.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:33 PM   #133
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
When did Hagler fight Espana and Frias?

The fact that you think Sibson and Hamsho are big wins for Hagler and better wins than Leonard, Duran, and Hearns is odd when you go around acting like the grand poobah of boxing.

Sibson and Hamsho were pedestrian contenders at best.

Haglers win over Sibson wasnt so impressive as how he won over him. He treated Sibson exactly like what he was, a regional talent, and outfought him at every step of the game. That says something about Hagler but it says a lot more about Sibson.

I didnt think it rocketed him to the top of boxings greatest middleweights. Thats like saying Monzon's wins over Briscoe and Griffith in the mid 1970s cemented his greatness. Or like saying Robinson's KO of Graziano cemented his legacy, or his decision over Fusari? Youve chosen two of his middle-of-the-road defenses and somehow built them into something defining.

Now in hindsight, with proper perspective those wins look even less impressive as neither fighter accomplished much after Hagler stopped them.

If you really believe those are Haglers best wins at middleweight then we can check him off of this discussion altogether. Im curious if you really believe those were better, or more defining victories than his wins over Duran, Hearns, and Mugabi.

We can just leave off the fact that he lost to a guy who had never fought above 154 and was fighting his first fight in years. Although you already seem to discount that and feel it was Hagler who was at a disadvantage.
did I say he did? I said I went to watch them duke it out with each other at the olympic. you're not the only one who watches live fights. learn to read

If beating Sibson was of little significance, why did all but one of KO's panel exalt him as the sport's premier fighter as a result of this one fight?

Promoters, trainers, fighters, commentators, all of them pointed to that one fight which means Sibbo is much better than u give him credit for

U want to know if that win was more defning than beating Duran?

u should know that is is but then u judge based on what general sports fans think, not by what the more knowledgable insiders think

consider: Hagler gains universal recognition at the sports #1 fighter p4p by besting Sibson

then his status come crashing down in the Duran fight, obviously a more defining win for Hagler and a much better win
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:41 PM   #134
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post

Sibson and Hamsho were pedestrian contenders at best.

I didnt think it rocketed him to the top of boxings greatest middleweights. Thats like saying Monzon's wins over Briscoe and Griffith in the mid 1970s cemented his greatness. Or like saying Robinson's KO of Graziano cemented his legacy, or his decision over Fusari? Youve chosen two of his middle-of-the-road defenses and somehow built them into something defining.



I didnt build him into it, KO and Ring did! Why do u keep ignoring this critical piece of information???

is it becuz it proves me right?

go see for yourself! that's right, u dont have access to those issues. they are US based where the world's best fighters reside

okay so u dont think it. Obviously it did, and u werent aware of it.

why then after the win would Boxing illustrated run an article matching Hagler with the top middleweights of the past with Hagler coming in 4th by their panel???
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:10 AM   #135
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

I'm glad we settled this once and for all
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