Vlad Klitschko vs the following

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Wlad did what a fighter was supposed to do and win, however it does little for his credibility and legacy the fact that despite being much bigger, stronger, taller, heavier, more exp. fighter compared to Haye and despite Haye's trash talking, and Wlad promising for a knockout he basically won by default, simply by using his jab and the occasional right hand to keep the much smaller man at bay. This against an ex cruiser who was nearly KO'd by an ex Middle and KO'd by someone not even regarded as a puncher.

Seeing such a timid and cagey performance against an opponent like Haye gives me little hope and reassurance that Wlad could hang in there with guys like Holmes, Bowe and Ali. Guys who had serious heart and grit who were willing to put themselves on the line in order to win. If Wlad fought like that against Haye how would he react to bulldozers like Tyson and Foreman or even a guy like Morrison?

Ive rarely read such a truthful post. Grade A.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Wlad did what a fighter was supposed to do and win, however it does little for his credibility and legacy the fact that despite being much bigger, stronger, taller, heavier, more exp. fighter compared to Haye and despite Haye's trash talking, and Wlad promising for a knockout he basically won by default, simply by using his jab and the occasional right hand to keep the much smaller man at bay. This against an ex cruiser who was nearly KO'd by an ex Middle and KO'd by someone not even regarded as a puncher.

I don't see how a near whitewash against a top contender whom a large segment of the boxing public is giving a good chance to knock out does little for his credibility or legacy. Of course a stoppage would have been better, as a definitive statement of superiority, but I doubt it would have significantly altered people's perception of Wlad as a cautious safety first fighter. Wlad's fought for long enough now that most people have their opinions of him set down in stone. All he can, and should, really do from this point on is continue to win.

Using the term "ex-cruiser" in a derogatory fashion when comparing Wlad's opponents against those of past fighters is very unfair, considering the fact that most cruisers nowadays would be normal sized heavies prior to about 1980 and huge men prior to about 1950. It's a legitimate argument only if you're comparing Wlad to 90s era fighters like Lewis, who mostly fought large men themselves at the top end of the game. But using it to demean him whilst praising the middleweights and former middleweights that make up a large proportion of someone like Louis's resume is a bit of a double standard, no?

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Seeing such a timid and cagey performance against an opponent like Haye gives me little hope and reassurance that Wlad could hang in there with guys like Holmes, Bowe and Ali. Guys who had serious heart and grit who were willing to put themselves on the line in order to win. If Wlad fought like that against Haye how would he react to bulldozers like Tyson and Foreman or even a guy like Morrison?

I don't really see the logic here. Wlad totally controlled Haye and was only caught maybe three times in total throughout the whole fight, all of which punches he took fine. Bowe was controlled by Golota's jab twice, and you can call him past prime or overtrained or undertrained or whatever, but Golota was still the best big man Bowe ever fought and he failed the test both times. You can point to the Evander fight all you want, but that was one great performance against an ex-cruiser himself and not really relevant to a Wlad matchup IMO. And history has shown that's it's more likely the slob Bowe that turns up to this fight, if we're going to be a bit more realistic about these things.

Ali lacked the punching power to put Wlad into a shell, and enjoyed being the outside boxer himself. Likewise Holmes, though Holmes was a meaner SOB and had a mite more punching power to potentially close the show. Of course I'm not saying they couldn't win; Ali especially had some crazy intangibles to his game and incredible willpower that drove him to feats above and beyond normal men, so I'd never count him out. But I wouldn't count Wlad out either, considering his concentration level and his consistent ability to win rounds. Lennox and Tyson are the two fighters whom I feel confident get to Wlad and stop him, maybe Liston and Foreman as well, though there's a significant handspeed difference to take into account there.

Morrison gets blitzed. There's no way he makes the final bell.

[dinovelvet]

You talk a lot about unfairness when in fact its just stating the reality of the suitation, but in a fanststy fight you claim its the slob of Riddick Bowe who turns up. Thats what you call unfair.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

I don't see how a near whitewash against a top contender whom a large segment of the boxing public is giving a good chance to knock out does little for his credibility or legacy. Of course a stoppage would have been better, as a definitive statement of superiority, but I doubt it would have significantly altered people's perception of Wlad as a cautious safety first fighter. Wlad's fought for long enough now that most people have their opinions of him set down in stone. All he can, and should, really do from this point on is continue to win.

Using the term "ex-cruiser" in a derogatory fashion when comparing Wlad's opponents against those of past fighters is very unfair, considering the fact that most cruisers nowadays would be normal sized heavies prior to about 1980 and huge men prior to about 1950. It's a legitimate argument only if you're comparing Wlad to 90s era fighters like Lewis, who mostly fought large men themselves at the top end of the game. But using it to demean him whilst praising the middleweights and former middleweights that make up a large proportion of someone like Louis's resume is a bit of a double standard, no?



I don't really see the logic here. Wlad totally controlled Haye and was only caught maybe three times in total throughout the whole fight, all of which punches he took fine. Bowe was controlled by Golota's jab twice, and you can call him past prime or overtrained or undertrained or whatever, but Golota was still the best big man Bowe ever fought and he failed the test both times. You can point to the Evander fight all you want, but that was one great performance against an ex-cruiser himself and not really relevant to a Wlad matchup IMO. And history has shown that's it's more likely the slob Bowe that turns up to this fight, if we're going to be a bit more realistic about these things.

Ali lacked the punching power to put Wlad into a shell, and enjoyed being the outside boxer himself. Likewise Holmes, though Holmes was a meaner SOB and had a mite more punching power to potentially close the show. Of course I'm not saying they couldn't win; Ali especially had some crazy intangibles to his game and incredible willpower that drove him to feats above and beyond normal men, so I'd never count him out. But I wouldn't count Wlad out either, considering his concentration level and his consistent ability to win rounds. Lennox and Tyson are the two fighters whom I feel confident get to Wlad and stop him, maybe Liston and Foreman as well, though there's a significant handspeed difference to take into account there.

Morrison gets blitzed. There's no way he makes the final bell.

If I knew how to break up quotes this would probably be simpler

In regards to the first point like I said all Wlad should do is try to win, however it does little for his legacy if Wlad is forced to fight such a safety first and timid performance against someone like Haye. Seeing such a performance makes me question what evidence you have to back up the claim that Morrison who has shown to be quite skilled, fast, good head movement, very hard punching similiar to Haye BUT has shown to have heart and balls would somehow "Get blitzed" and theres "No way he makes the final bell" yet Haye does and did? This is what I'm talking about when it comes to hurting Wlad's legacy. Surely that right there is a double standard.

If you don't like the term "ex cruiser" perhaps I'll say the man who he outweighs by over 30 lbs since that alone is enough for majority on here to dismiss an old time fighters chance against a modern fighter. That's the reality of the situation.

As for the 2nd point it was just what I said before. Men like Bowe, Ali, Holmes etc have heart and grit. These are men, who unlike Haye, will not be contempt with eating jabs all night and fighting simply to survive until the end of the bell then blame their poor performance on a 'broken toe'. These are men who will fighting every minute of every round TO WIN, who will push Wlad out of his comfort zone and not allow him to fight his safety first method. Wlad hasn't fought a man who was willing to push him out of his comfort zone since Sanders. Also say what you will about Bowe in regards to Golota, and make no mistake I believe Bowe to be overrated, but he demonstrated true qualities of a champion something Wlad hasn't really shown beyond being consistent.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

In regards to the first point like I said all Wlad should do is try to win, however it does little for his legacy if Wlad is forced to fight such a safety first and timid performance against someone like Haye. Seeing such a performance makes me question what evidence you have to back up the claim that Morrison who has shown to be quite skilled, fast, good head movement, very hard punching similiar to Haye BUT has shown to have heart and balls would somehow "Get blitzed" and theres "No way he makes the final bell" yet Haye does and did? This is what I'm talking about when it comes to hurting Wlad's legacy. Surely that right there is a double standard.

Haye, whatever his faults, is a very fast and explosive ambush puncher with a lot more canniness than he's often given credit for. He had more than enough punching power to badly hurt and even stop Wlad, yet the fact that he was so effectively controlled and shut down through twelve rounds is somehow seen as a criticism of Wlad? That's what Wlad does, he shuts guys down and stops them fighting their fight. That's his legacy. He'll never be known as a Tyson-esque destroyer and he shouldn't start fighting like one now.

Re: Morrison. When I say that he'd "get blitzed" I simply mean he'd get dominated and stopped, not that he'd get taken out in the first or second rounds. Should have chosen a different word perhaps, but yes, there's no way he'd make the final bell and that would be almost entirely due to his heart and balls. Tommy was naturally a stalker, in that his whole stance and mental attitude were geared towards coming forward and doing damage. Whilst he could fight on the backfoot, he was not comfortable there, and he was very hittable by anyone big who fought behind a good jab. Old man Foreman was catching him continuously with his own and forcing Tommy to box on the outside where he wasn't entirely comfortable. This also happened against Lewis, who is probably the most stylistically similar heavyweight to Wlad.

Against Wlad, Tommy would get kept at bay in the opening stages and find himself with problems in landing his own shots due to not being able to set his feet or finding Wlad constantly just out of range of his left. From then he might either try to force his way forward, in which case he leaves himself open or gets clinched up on the inside, or he gets pushed onto the backfoot and forced to box. Either way the fight settles into a typical rhythm with Tommy eating more and more jabs and right hands, getting more and more discouraged and finally getting stopped somewhere in the middle or late rounds. I say that he won't reach the final bell because, although he wasn't slow he didn't quite have the reaction speed of Haye to have avoided those punches without getting caught by something big along the way, and tended to take his eye off the ball for stretches in a fight. He was also prone to self-doubt even when things were going his way, which resulted in him tensing up and gassing.

I'd actually give Morrison a much better chance to stop Haye than I would Wlad due to precisely those qualities you outlined above.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

If you don't like the term "ex cruiser" perhaps I'll say the man who he outweighs by over 30 lbs since that alone is enough for majority on here to dismiss an old time fighters chance against a modern fighter. That's the reality of the situation.

It's not that I dislike the term. After all it's perfectly true that Haye is an ex-cruiser. What I dislike is its being used to demean someone's opposition by basically insinuating that the fighter in question didn't fight 'real' heavyweights, when in reality cruiserweights are heavyweights, by the standard of much of the latter half of the 20th century, and in many cases considerably more skilled and conditioned than the bigger fighters they now compete against once they move up.

But that's kind of beside the point when talking about Haye vs Klitschko since Wlad totally dominated him, 'timid' performance or not. The most it can tell us is that a smaller fighter could last the distance with Wlad if they're sufficiently tricky and don't care if they hardly win a round.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

As for the 2nd point it was just what I said before. Men like Bowe, Ali, Holmes etc have heart and grit. These are men, who unlike Haye, will not be contempt with eating jabs all night and fighting simply to survive until the end of the bell then blame their poor performance on a 'broken toe'. These are men who will fighting every minute of every round TO WIN, who will push Wlad out of his comfort zone and not allow him to fight his safety first method. Wlad hasn't fought a man who was willing to push him out of his comfort zone since Sanders. Also say what you will about Bowe in regards to Golota, and make no mistake I believe Bowe to be overrated, but he demonstrated true qualities of a champion something Wlad hasn't really shown beyond being consistent.

Having heart and grit can be a benefit or it can be a curse. For Holmes and Ali it was a benefit because they had the skills and the smarts to put those qualities to good use in winning a fight. I can't say the same for Bowe, who really didn't show much ability to adapt when things weren't going his way. Bowe's sheer size and aggression might stand him in good stead, but it might also lead to him taking horrendous punishment round after round and being unable to turn the tide. It's a bit of a toss up in which I'll favour the more consistent and skilled operator in Wlad. As for Ali and Holmes, they would not be fighting every minute of every round to win, not in the way that Bowe would; they'd be trying to outbox Wlad and if they found themselves down on the cards then they'd try to change tactics. Both men might be able to push Wlad out of his comfort zone but they'd be doing it with quickness and sharp countershots, not relentless come forward aggression. I just think both fights would be a lot closer than people think, and would not at all be surprised if Wlad took a victory on the cards.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

If I knew how to break up quotes this would probably be simpler

You can break up quotes by copying the two quote tags at the beginning and end of the post and pasting them where you want a new quote to be. For example (and I've removed the brackets so you can see it more easily):

quote=MadcapMaxie;14525360 If I knew how to break up quotes this would probably be simpler /quote

quote=MadcapMaxie;14525360 If I knew how to... /quote

quote=MadcapMaxie;14525360 ...break up quotes this would probably be simpler /quote

This would split the above line into two quotes. Just be sure to add in the brackets as well, otherwise it comes out as regular text.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Wlad did what a fighter was supposed to do and win, however it does little for his credibility and legacy the fact that despite being much bigger, stronger, taller, heavier, more exp. fighter compared to Haye and despite Haye's trash talking, and Wlad promising for a knockout he basically won by default, simply by using his jab and the occasional right hand to keep the much smaller man at bay. This against an ex cruiser who was nearly KO'd by an ex Middle and KO'd by someone not even regarded as a puncher.

Said "ex cruiser" is as big as Ali and Holmes, so unless you count those out against Wlad on size alone, I don't see why he should be labeled as "ex cruiser".

Let's also not forget that Wlad was 35 when he shut out Haye. This is the same age that Ali lost to Neon Leon, Holmes to brother Spinks, Frazier was already retired, Tyson was past his best, Dempsey had long since retired, etc etc.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Seeing such a timid and cagey performance against an opponent like Haye gives me little hope and reassurance that Wlad could hang in there with guys like Holmes, Bowe and Ali. Guys who had serious heart and grit who were willing to put themselves on the line in order to win. If Wlad fought like that against Haye how would he react to bulldozers like Tyson and Foreman or even a guy like Morrison?

I can reverse the argument - the fact that Bowe shipped 50+% of the opponents' punches, even against journeyman, doesn't give me much assurance. If Ali was nailing Foreman at will with right hands, how does George cope with someone who can box and actually packs a punch? Etc, etc. For the record, I'm not at all saying Wlad would definitely beat them. I'm just saying that you can make a good case for him, based on the same type of arguments you use for him losing.

Bottomline: there is no perfect fighter - they all have different weaknesses. Frazier could be outpunched, Ali could be out-pressured, Marciano could be outboxed, and Wlad can be knocked out. All of these are true yet these men have proven to be extremely difficult to beat. You won't ever see a B-2 take on a MiG-27 in a dogfight because it's not their modus operandi. For the same reason you won't see Wlad exchanging punches a la Gatti or see Frazier try to jab on his toes and outbox Ali.

When under heavy fire, warriors like Holyfield and Marciano have more reserves to tap into than Wlad. However, Wlad has more tools to avoid needing to tap into those reserves in the first place. Again: different fighters, different weaknesses.

[dinovelvet]

^^^ What a load of shit. Wlad was pre-prime when he lost, and now to give his win over Haye more creedance , he was past prime. Typical K2 apologist nonsense.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

^^^ What a load of shit. Wlad was pre-prime when he lost, and now to give his win over Haye more creedance , he was past prime. Typical K2 apologist nonsense.

There is a 7 year span between the first Brewster fight and the Haye fight, which was essentially as long as Rocky's entire career.

Are you suggesting that Rocky was prime for his entire career... or even longer?

[Synthetic Decay]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

^^^ What a load of shit. Wlad was pre-prime when he lost, and now to give his win over Haye more creedance , he was past prime. Typical K2 apologist nonsense.

Pre prime due to a style transition, not physically.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

^^^ What a load of shit. Wlad was pre-prime when he lost, and now to give his win over Haye more creedance , he was past prime. Typical K2 apologist nonsense.

If you think a 35 year old boxer is in his prime than more power to you.

[dinovelvet]

^^ Stupid comment . There has been manny boxers in their prime at 35 and beyond .....Are you saying Wlad is past prime now?

[dinovelvet]

Because he has visibly declined in his last 4 wipe outs. Grade A moron.

[dinovelvet]

The hospital patient Chagaev, who is also a useless HW?

How has he declined, explain it to me?

Everybody will tell you todays version of Wlad is the best.

[Seamus]

So, again are you going to tell me how long Marciano's prime lasted? Did it last 7 years? Was he in his prime from 1948-1955... i.e. essentially his entire professional career?

Does it now begin to dawn on you how long Wlad has sat atop the division and what an accomplishment that is?

[rusak]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

The hospital patient Chagaev, who is also a useless HW?

How has he declined, explain it to me?

Everybody will tell you todays version of Wlad is the best.

I think you must have Chagaev confused with Louis from the Marciano fight. Now Louis looked like he been literally dragged out of a hospital bed for that one, or maybe out of an old folks home.