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Old 02-08-2008, 02:40 AM   #1
Amsterdam
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Default Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

How does he do against the crop of(not in order) -

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Foreman
Tyson
Holyfield
Walcott
Dempsey
Marciano
Liston
Frazier
Charles
Lewis
Johnson
Tunney

Discuss.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:45 AM   #2
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Where's Jeffries?
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Where's Jeffries?
Add him in if you want.

Last edited by pelican; 02-03-2007 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Wonder if we've seen Wlad peak yet.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Wonder if we've seen Wlad peak yet.
He won't be getting any better, so as to what we have seen of him at his best.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Louis -...**** it, loss.
Ali - loss
Holmes - loss
Foreman - loss
Tyson - loss
Holyfield - loss...but I'm not 100% here.
Walcott - win
Dempsey - win
Marciano - win
Liston - mmm...win
Frazier - loss
Charles - win
Lewis - loss
Johnson - win
Tunney - win
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:04 AM   #7
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Louis -...**** it, loss.
Ali - loss
Holmes - loss
Foreman - loss
Tyson - loss
Holyfield - loss...but I'm not 100% here.
Walcott - win
Dempsey - win
Marciano - win
Liston - mmm...win
Frazier - loss
Charles - win
Lewis - loss
Johnson - win
Tunney - win
Interesting picks, most people would definitely favour Liston, I'm one of them in fact, but I'm interested in your reasoning here if you don't mind.

Also, Liston is likely harder to beat than Louis is, if you think this over and still feel Louis win, I'd like your reasoning there.
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:49 AM   #8
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Interesting picks, most people would definitely favour Liston, I'm one of them in fact, but I'm interested in your reasoning here if you don't mind.

Also, Liston is likely harder to beat than Louis is, if you think this over and still feel Louis win, I'd like your reasoning there.
Well, Liston has never really impressed me that much as a fighter, that's all. There's the jab and the power, but to me Liston always seemed slow-witted in the ring. I don't think it took too much to out-think him.
If I look at footage of him vs. Ali, there are many times he just follows Ali around the ring like a puppy on a leash, instead of cutting the ring off as any decent pro should do. That's not age taking it's toll, it's Liston being completely dumb-struck.
Liston was also not blessed with quick hands; he seemed a rather slow, clubbing type rather than a boxer that had speed and snap.

If I think of how he'd fare vs. Wlad, I think it would be a battle of the jabs. Wlad's more fluid and more mobile and I think he has better options off the jab, like his booming right and underrated left hook.

If indeed it does come to a battle of jabs, then that's exactly where Wlad wants to be. He doesn't want someone putting pressure on him and forcing him to fight when he doesn't want to. He wants it at long range where he can drop that big right hand, and rest in the clinches.

Lastly, I don't think Liston had the mental fortitude of a Marciano or Holyfield. If the fight starts slipping away from him, he's unlikely to regain the initiative.

With Louis, the big difference to me is Louis' handspeed and combination punching, an area where he was infinitely superior to Liston. Louis also didn't need much room to punch and worked well on the inside, although he was good in every range.
What if Wlad tries to rest, finds he can't tie Louis up effectively and Louis starts tattooing his ribs and face with those short, powerful hooks and uppercuts?
I don't think Louis could adapt all that well during a fight either (he usually relied on a rematch after some analysis to do that) but he did prove he could turn things around or deal with a difficult opponent to some degree.

Wlad has a big size and reach advantage and that could be a concern, but Louis never struggled to reach Abe Simon's chin or Buddy Baer's chin. Obviously neither was the caliber of Klitschko, but I'm just pointing out despite the size advantage, Louis could definitely reach him.
The irony with Louis is that it was always the smaller, nimble fighters like Farr, Conn or Charles that gave him problems, not the big guys.

Wlad has the power to cause Louis a lot of worries for sure, but I think the opposite holds true as well. The difference being Wlad almost unravels when in trouble whereas Louis becomes more dangerous.

Of course, I could be completely off-base, but I can't ever be proven wrong.


PS-I'm not judging Liston on only the Ali footage. I've seen footage of him in his 'prime' and I'm still not bowled over.
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:58 AM   #9
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
How does he do against the crop of(not in order) -

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Foreman
Tyson
Holyfield
Walcott
Dempsey
Marciano
Liston
Frazier
Charles
Lewis
Johnson
Tunney

Discuss.
His level of power and athletic talent makes it impossible to rule him out completely. The most you can say for sure is that he could beat some of these gys and loose to all of them.

The guys who would have him for breakfast in my opinion are Dempsey, Louis, Liston and Tyson.

I would give him a verry good shot at beating Tunney, Walcott, Charles and Hollyfield.

Things also get interesting where diferent rule sets come into play. For example John L Sullivan would likley beat him in a London Prize Ring fight but lose to him under todays rule set.
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:59 AM   #10
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Wlad vs:

Louis: loss
Ali: loss
Holmes: loss
Foreman: Foreman mid-round stoppage, or Wlad on points. EdGing towards Foreman.
Tyson: loss
Holyfield: I'd slightly favour Evander, but Wlad has a decent chance here.
Walcott: win
Dempsey: win
Marciano: win
Liston: loss
Frazier: loss
Charles: win
Lewis: loss
Johnson: 50/50
Tunney: Close win


Ps: I'm taking the current version of Wlad- under Manny Steward.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
He won't be getting any better, so as to what we have seen of him at his best.
And yet his next few fights might just tell us the most.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:19 AM   #12
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Wow People are underated the Rock. I belive he eats Wlad for Lunch, stopping him in about the 9th round.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Wow People are underated the Rock. I belive he eats Wlad for Lunch, stopping him in about the 9th round.
Anything's possible. There's a massive size difference though.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:29 AM   #14
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Anything's possible. There's a massive size difference though.
Yeah and he has the same size difference over Louis and Dempsey, and most of the pre Lewis Champs.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:33 AM   #15
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Anything's possible. There's a massive size difference though.
Yeah size, strength and skill would be the deciding factor IMO.

Despite saying that, though I reckon Marciano would have a good shot at TKO'ing the earlier less polished version of Wlad- who was not nearly as defenively sound as he has been in the last few years. As of now though I think Wlad would beat Rocky.
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