Pacquiao > Chavez

[Chempasillo]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

Marquez is not a stronger puncher.

How many factual errors are you going to make in one thread? Let it die.

okay. maruqez is a stronger puncher!!

as far as manny being better than chavez. if you guys don't believe me, than you also don't believe the ring magazine, the bible of boxing. how many times is chavez listed as boxer of the year?

1 time

how many times manny?

3 times !!

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_Magazine_fighter_of_the_year[/ame]

you know what emanuel steward said of manny pacquiao (I don't know exactly in which fight it was, I am prety sure it was against oscar).

emanuel: " I think he (pac) is better than henry (armstrong)."

and henry is not listed in the top 30 like chavez, most experts have him on 2-4, some even 1.

you all you guys make fun of me, like I knew shit, than so be it. but emanuel and ring are on my side so f$%& yall again. or will you contest than you know more than arguably the greatest trainer of this era and the most important magazine in boxing?

you let it die

[Foxy 01]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

yeah, you guys are real mathematic geniuses from bantam to sm it's 9 divisions, not 10.

manny started at 106 pounds, thats light flyweight.

from light flyweight up to light middleweight is 10 divisions jump. so stop coming at me with 5 or 9 divisions jumps when you can't name me someone who did 10!!!

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Erm i think that is ten divisions. Not saying of course that Duran fought in all of them, merely that they amount to ten divisions.

[ReadyOrNot]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

I so often here about great fights from today or in rescent time not being seriously mentioned for p4p greatness. I mean, so many people say, no, either pac or floyd shouldnt be near a top 10 all time great list.

I compared 2 great boxer, 1 who is ranked by most in the top 20 and the other who climbed liek 10 divisions and should easily be mentioned in the top 5, yet he is not even mentioned for top 10.

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

both, about same size and reach, both same weight in these bouts and both near or in prime. it doesn't get a better example than this and if you don't see teh huge difference of explosivness, strength, speed and punchinger power, also overall movemant, than you don't see what is happening in both videos, because the obvious is the obvious.

manny would KO either duran and chavez and has business in the top 10 and fuck nostalic feeling, when you fight 100 cans doesnt mean you're greater. chavez did not fought better opposition than pac when you just compare the level or world class fighter they faced. duran yes, but he also lost to barely all of them, have to give him credt, because he wasn't in his favourite weight.

You have completely lost it. Manny was concussed by a great fighter. Get over it.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

okay. maruqez is a stronger puncher!!

as far as manny being better than chavez. if you guys don't believe me, than you also don't believe the ring magazine, the bible of boxing. how many times is chavez listed as boxer of the year?

1 time

how many times manny?

3 times !!

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

you know what emanuel steward said of manny pacquiao (I don't know exactly in which fight it was, I am prety sure it was against oscar).

emanuel: " I think he (pac) is better than henry (armstrong)."

and henry is not listed in the top 30 like chavez, most experts have him on 2-4, some even 1.

you all you guys make fun of me, like I knew shit, than so be it. but emanuel and ring are on my side so f$%& yall again. or will you contest than you know more than arguably the greatest trainer of this era and the most important magazine in boxing?

you let it die

So by that logic, Glen Johnson is better than Juan Manuel Marquez, and Ricky Hatton is better than Wilfred Benitez

Being celebrated by a magazine is not a skill. Try again. Or better yet concede your argument has no basis beyond personal preference .

[Foxy 01]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

if you call getting knocked down like 5 times in 4 fights by pacquiao and overall winning more rounds in there last bout a rape, than you have no clue what you talking about. and by the way, marquez is a hell of a fighter, stronger than chavez and would probably beat him.

Its all about getting back up again, just to clarify things for us, how long was your little hero asleep after Marquez hit him once? 2 minutes, 3, 4. Do tell us.

[Zopilote]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

So by that logic, Glen Johnson is better than Juan Manuel Marquez, and Ricky Hatton is better than Wilfred Benitez

Being celebrated by a magazine is not a skill. Try again. Or better yet concede your argument has no basis beyond personal preference .

Go easy on that kid now, Bogo...He's been violated enough in this thread.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

ducking and being an excellent boxer are 2 different things.

floyd is maybe the greatest ducker for sure. yet he is the greatest defensive boxer ever and a ring genius.

best example is roy jones. yeah he ducked DM or a rematch with X. he also avoided a prime calzaghe, a lets better say they both avoided each other. yet a prime jones was the baddest boxer the world has ever seen.

Whitaker and Chavez are #1-2 for me over the last quarter-century.

floyd outsmarts pernell and chavez. he would have a harder time with pernell, because pernell hit very hard and was very difficult to catch himself, but the floyd mayweather of the gatti or coralles fight was just a small tick more athletic and faster and more fluidly moving than pernell.

He'd have a hard time with him because he's southpaw, possesses one of the greatest jabs of all-time (P4P) to bother him and has the work rate Floyd can't or simply isn't willing to match due to the risk it requires. He'll have no advantage in terms of his speed and reflexes. Floyd is actually pretty mechanical in comparision as far as fluid movement is concerned.

As far as p4p goes, pernell is in the top 10, also pac and floyd. chavez top 20. prety fair to me.

[GOW7]

People need to get off Manny's nuts. He's a hype job who looked like shit against shot Mosley. Chavez KO's Manny plain and simple. His body assault puts Manny in the hospital for a month where Manny would be pissing blood even after being released. If shot to shit Margarito landed 260 plus power shots on Manny just what in the hell you think Chavez is going to do to Pacman? Get fucking real you loser ass pacturds.

[Chempasillo]

Originally Posted by Foxy 01

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Erm i think that is ten divisions. Not saying of course that Duran fought in all of them, merely that they amount to ten divisions.

he climbed 9 divisions. batantam is not counted in. but if we stick to your logic than manny climbed 11 divisions, if we include the division were he started and that is light flyweight.

[Gander Tasco]

There's no reason you can't rate Pacquiao above Chavez. It could be argued either way.

As to who would win, I'd have to favor Pacquiao's style / ability over Chavez - who was a great in-fighter, and swarming-type fighter, but that's not the way to fight Pacquiao.

[GOW7]

Originally Posted by Gander Tasco

There's no reason you can't rate Pacquiao above Chavez. It could be argued either way.

As to who would win, I'd have to favor Pacquiao's style / ability over Chavez - who was a great in-fighter, and swarming-type fighter, but that's not the way to fight Pacquiao.

Chavez has a better chin and his style isnt limited to just looking good agasinst brawlers like Manny. Chavez fought against all styles. Plus CHavez isnt fighting at no catch weight. Manny couldnt drop Bradley with plush left hands landing and was barely able to effect JMM when he scored a more so off balance KD on JMM who has no where near the stamina, chin or effectiveness of Chavez. EPO Manny has a chance but ordinary Manny who's power has clearly diminshed gets killed in the ring. His kidneys would fail against Chavez. BTW welcome back pactard. Its good to still see some of you in existence instead of tucking tail and run away.

[Chempasillo]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

So by that logic, Glen Johnson is better than Juan Manuel Marquez, and Ricky Hatton is better than Wilfred Benitez

Being celebrated by a magazine is not a skill. Try again. Or better yet concede your argument has no basis beyond personal preference .

okay, you pick only 1 think out. than argue with the best trainer of the last 20 years.

my basis is what you can see in a video and that is what you and anybody else can see and that is a fighter (manny) moving faster, hitting harder than another (chavez). my only point is, that by watching those 2 videos, is the manny is simply more explosiv and energized than chavez ever was and chavez would get fucked up. that's all.

one of you guys even said, that with time comes improvemant. boxers become physicly simply better. in all sports. look how they dunked back than in the 60's in basketball, look how dwight howard or blake griffin jump now. or look how much faster usain bolt is compared to sprinter of back than. all I am saying is, one of you even admit that manny is physicly much mroe gifted than chavez (which would be one big reason he would beat him, because as far as I am concerned, cotto and berrera's boxing fundamentals were superior to those of manny and manny beat them because he was simply the quicker, harder puncher, with more endurance (barely nobody beats pacquiao when it comes to endurance and overall condition, also no chavez).

but is fair to say just because human body updated and become stronger faster more athletic, that you can't compare boxers of today with boxers of the past.

emanuel said, that manny would beat henry. when I watch the videos, I see someone going head first (henry), often very open and unlseashing a lot of punches makinghim even more open, therefore I would say just like emanuel, that henry gets wrecked up, because you can't go head first open and not expecting to not get fucked up by manny. also manny was also more engerized than henry. and I don't give a damn about sympathy, because I dont know either henry or manny and can't say if I like or dislike them ( I may even dislike more manny than henry, because I love dogs and I heard back than manny was doing dog fighting, so fuck em), but thats not my point, my point is not sympathy, my point is "who is better in the ring than the other". and if I believe videos and my personal knowledge of boxing than I see manny kicking both the ass of either henry or chavez (and the tape shows that they are slower). would manny have technical problems with chavez, because of chavez's solid fundamentals and superb right, sure manny would have problems, would have chavez problems with the superb speed and punching power of manny, yes chavez would have a lot of problems. would chavez ultaimtly get caught, yes, that's what I think.

[elchivito]

Originally Posted by Gander Tasco

There's no reason you can't rate Pacquiao above Chavez. It could be argued either way.

As to who would win, I'd have to favor Pacquiao's style / ability over Chavez - who was a great in-fighter, and swarming-type fighter, but that's not the way to fight Pacquiao.

Manny's style isn't the way to defeat Chavez either. Whitaker was able to pull it off and Taylor almost did, but paid the price. Manny just doesn't have the IQ and ring generalship Whitaker had to upset Chavez. Perhaps at 147 I'd give an edge to Pacman just slightly as a benefit of the doubt, but not at 135 or 140. This is no Ricky Hatton, Chavez would trade his straight rights with Manny's lefts and walk Manny down. Manny would counter Chavez, gain an,early lead, but he'd find out real quick his punches don't affect Chavez same way he hurt Hatton. Manny would have success with lateral movement, but he's a fighter, the instant he gets caught on the ropes he fights back, getting lured into a fight, and thats where Chavez's superior infighting changes the tide. Between Manny and Chavez clashing together going forward in a straight line, I really doubt Manny would move Chavez back. His speed and footwork might bother Chavez, but Manny never was a boxer. He'd fight against one of the best fighters in history. That would be his downfall.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

okay, you pick only 1 think out. than argue with the best trainer of the last 20 years.

my basis is what you can see in a video and that is what you and anybody else can see and that is a fighter (manny) moving faster, hitting harder than another (chavez). my only point is, that by watching those 2 videos, is the manny is simply more explosiv and energized than chavez ever was and chavez would get fucked up. that's all.

one of you guys even said, that with time comes improvemant. boxers become physicly simply better. in all sports. look how they dunked back than in the 60's in basketball, look how dwight howard or blake griffin jump now. or look how much faster usain bolt is compared to sprinter of back than. all I am saying is, one of you even admit that manny is physicly much mroe gifted than chavez (which would be one big reason he would beat him, because as far as I am concerned, cotto and berrera's boxing fundamentals were superior to those of manny and manny beat them because he was simply the quicker, harder puncher, with more endurance (barely nobody beats pacquiao when it comes to endurance and overall condition, also no chavez).

but is fair to say just because human body updated and become stronger faster more athletic, that you can't compare boxers of today with boxers of the past.

emanuel said, that manny would beat henry. when I watch the videos, I see someone going head first (henry), often very open and unlseashing a lot of punches makinghim even more open, therefore I would say just like emanuel, that henry gets wrecked up, because you can't go head first open and not expecting to not get fucked up by manny. also manny was also more engerized than henry. and I don't give a damn about sympathy, because I dont know either henry or manny and can't say if I like or dislike them ( I may even dislike more manny than henry, because I love dogs and I heard back than manny was doing dog fighting, so fuck em), but thats not my point, my point is not sympathy, my point is "who is better in the ring than the other". and if I believe videos and my personal knowledge of boxing than I see manny kicking both the ass of either henry or chavez (and the tape shows that they are slower). would manny have technical problems with chavez, because of chavez's solid fundamentals and superb right, sure manny would have problems, would have chavez problems with the superb speed and punching power of manny, yes chavez would have a lot of problems. would chavez ultaimtly get caught, yes, that's what I think.

It's just a load of bullshit. Blatantly incorrect facts once again. Chavez has equal stamina, he's demonstrated it time and time again over 12. He'll get "caught?" He has one of the best chins in boxing's history, and is an excellent defensive fighter. Your knowledge and your assessment of videos means nothing since you can't put a technical argument forward. You mentioned he's more skilled, I give you an array of fundamental skills Chavez surpasses Pacquiao with. You say he's faster and likes pressure, I mention a lesser fighter beating Manny by backing him up without the same speed. Then you laughably turn to Ring Magazine yearly rankings, as if they encapsulate the abilities of a fighter across generations.

You like Manny better. Doesn't change the facts. He's quicker, but he's not smarter. He's tough, but not tougher. He's great, but not the greatest. Get used to it. Who you beat is what matters, and in this era, Pac has accomplished a great deal, but not enough to suggest he easily surpasses Chavez and climbs the ranks of the top 10-15.

I'm not even against the idea that Manny can win, it's just that your reasoning is bullshit. You can't paint a picture of how the fight will go because you ignore every facet of truth that works against your favor. Manny can't fight on the inside, and he's been backed up and cornered by lesser pressure fighters. So once he's there what's hes going to do? Once you can answer that question, you can start finding real possibilities. But for now, stick to cherishing second-hand comments from known figures and arbitrary out-of-the-ring measurements of a fighter's ability. It seems to be the only way Pacquiao surpasses or beats Chavez in your head.

[Chempasillo]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

It's just a load of bullshit. Blatantly incorrect facts once again. Chavez has equal stamina, he's demonstrated it time and time again over 12. He'll get "caught?" He has one of the best chins in boxing's history, and is an excellent defensive fighter. Your knowledge and your assessment of videos means nothing since you can't put a technical argument forward. You mentioned he's more skilled, I give you an array of fundamental skills Chavez surpasses Pacquiao with. You say he's faster and likes pressure, I mention a lesser fighter beating Manny by backing him up without the same speed. Then you laughably turn to Ring Magazine yearly rankings, as if they encapsulate the abilities of a fighter across generations.

You like Manny better. Doesn't change the facts. He's quicker, but he's not smarter. He's tough, but not tougher. He's great, but not the greatest. Get used to it. Who you beat is what matters, and in this era, Pac has accomplished a great deal, but not enough to suggest he easily surpasses Chavez and climbs the ranks of the top 10-15.

I'm not even against the idea that Manny can win, it's just that your reasoning is bullshit. You can't paint a picture of how the fight will go because you ignore every facet of truth that works against your favor. Manny can't fight on the inside, and he's been backed up and cornered by lesser pressure fighters. So once he's there what's hes going to do? Once you can answer that question, you can start finding real possibilities. But for now, stick to cherishing second-hand comments from known figures and arbitrary out-of-the-ring measurements of a fighter's ability. It seems to be the only way Pacquiao surpasses or beats Chavez in your head.

that is wrong, I said manny would have problems with the right hand of chavez and sure would chavez's fundamentals pose problems to manny.
also the body punching from chavez would pose problems, luckily ariza strenghten that and even a monster in margarito couldnt take out manny with that monster left body hook.

but still you just don't get it.

chavez superior skillwise to meldrick right, yet he lost on scorecards until the bullshit-descision from the ref. manny is like meldrick very fast and powerful puncher. I would say less faster, but more powerful in punching. manny's endurance and overall condition and his 12 round moving speed surpasses meldricks. meldrick won those rounds by punchign a lot and just going at it. and thats exactly manny pacquiao, he is a god of coming at you with full speed and force and unleashing hell. and thats a fact.

also chavez often was infighting having his hands down low and his head wide open, you think you can be infront of manny with your head wide open and nothing happening?

chavez 139 pounds vs taylor, first fight, wide open all the time. manny was 138 pounsd vs hatton, chavez always coming at his opponent and often like I said open, so you think chavez would have survived or wouldnt have been dazzled by a "hatton like punch" manny put on and with the power and strength he had at 138 pounds which is comparable to the 139 version of chavez vs taylor.