Pacquiao > Chavez

[Chempasillo]

all I wanna say is and these will be my last words, because most of you speak, because they are fans or chavez or supporters and can't see the reality. I was a fan of prince naseem hamed, but I can easily say that marquez would technicly outsmart him and just beat him. even if I am a fan of somebody, I still can logicly think and imagine who is better than the other. some of you can't I guess.

what just gets on my nervs is that somebody who did something extraordinary, by beating barely anybody up, going up all these divisions and yet can't be recognized as a top 10 all time great. same goes for chicken, who may be a punk and scared boy when it comes down to fighting the real deals, but as far as I am concerned he is the greatest defender ever in boxing. mobody moves as fluid and got so rarely hit like floyd. easily also a top 10 guy. well there is pernell, roy or guzman, but outside of them floyd is one tricky defender, although I hate him to watch when he does his single punches every round and holding back, but I still can say, that he is tough to beat. he also would outsmart the likes of duran, chavez or would be to quick, to athletic for willie pepp or others in the top 30 all time, but yet we can't put them in a top10 spot, because only nostalic old fighters belong in the top 10, although they lost so many times and had so many bouts against tomato cans, just paid sparring.

[elchivito]

Marquez and Morales didn't need to be as explosive as Pacquiao to beat him. As for speed, Pacman is arguably faster, but Taylor was faster than Chavez and look what happened. Both Chavez and Duran were iron chinned and especially Duran he hit much harder than Manny. Duran had ko power up to middleweight. Manny can't ko past their prime welterweights. Prime Chavez beats him by UD and Duran ko's Manny worse than Marquez. Manny would have a vision of God and have a life and death experience after getting ko'd especially by Montreal Duran. He'd have a vision of his long dead dog his father ate, Pacman, and tell him he is not ready to die yet.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

fast in boxing is like one of the most important things overall.

on top he is not only faster but stronger, he hits harder, he hits more often.

chavez comes at you, always. manny destroyes 99 % of boxers who come at him. because he can counterpunch, his punches are super fast, super strong and when he punches in bunches, its like a flurry of 4-6 hardcore punches coming at you. marquez KO'd him out of the defence, best what he could do. mayweather is favourite if they faught, because he also fights from the defence. guys liek hatton, cotto or morales or paid, because they

So the fast guy always wins? Because Camacho was faster. You can take a look what happened to him in my previous post right there. Timing is more important than anything else.

Pacquiao beats every offensive fighter ever? Is that what you're telling me? That because he beat Cotto and Hatton, he's going to beat arguably the most defensively sound pressure fighter of all time? The one he didn't beat was a past-it Morales, and Chavez would be much more dynamic coming forward than he was.

The fact is that Pacquiao isn't very good on the inside at all. He awkwardly shells up leaving his body exposed and doesn't know how to fight out of a crouch like a conventional swarmer.

Taylor was a much faster volume puncher with greater mass and a conventional orthodox skill-set. And he could shorten up his combinations chest to chest and actually fight on the inside. And PS, he didn't win that fight.

The one thing Manny's got is good mobility. But with Chavez's ATG head movement, he's going to have a hard time landing and avoiding the shots coming back at him. If it stays in the center, Manny can have some success turning him and mixing up his shots, but if Chavez cuts off the ring like he has so many times before, Manny is in trouble. And he's been backed up & cornered by lesser fighters.

Defense huh? You do realize you can defend while coming forward, right?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4UjkvzfSYY[/ame]

Manny doesn't hit harder, isn't physically stronger, and even if he were, he doesn't know how to use it to bully or push back an opponent. It's not his style.

Again, answer the question of who is going to control the range, the angle, which fighter has the better opportunity to land their best punches, and which fighter can sustain and adjust as the fight continues.

You're picking the flashier guy who you like better, and offer nothing substantive about why he'd win beyond broad generalizations that don't make sense or apply.

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

all I wanna say is and these will be my last words, because most of you speak, because they are fans or chavez or supporters and can't see the reality. I was a fan of prince naseem hamed, but I can easily say that marquez would technicly outsmart him and just beat him. even if I am a fan of somebody, I still can logicly think and imagine who is better than the other. some of you can't I guess.

what just gets on my nervs is that somebody who did something extraordinary, by beating barely anybody up, going up all these divisions and yet can't be recognized as a top 10 all time great. same goes for chicken, who may be a punk and scared boy when it comes down to fighting the real deals, but as far as I am concerned he is the greatest defender ever in boxing. mobody moves as fluid and got so rarely hit like floyd. easily also a top 10 guy. well there is pernell, roy or guzman, but outside of them floyd is one tricky defender, although I hate him to watch when he does his single punches every round and holding back, but I still can say, that he is tough to beat. he also would outsmart the likes of duran, chavez or would be to quick, to athletic for willie pepp or others in the top 30 all time, but yet we can't put them in a top10 spot, because only nostalic old fighters belong in the top 10, although they lost so many times and had so many bouts against tomato cans, just paid sparring.

It's about who you beat. Not how many pounds you gained. Pacquiao's an ATG, but there are plenty more accomplished. Chavez is generally on par with Pacquiao in many ways, but you're not picking based on knowledge or analysis. You like Pacquiao better.

Duran? Duran is possibly one of the worst match-ups for Manny available. Seriously, watch him counter, slip, pressure, circle, one of the most complete, tenacious, durable, technically sound fighters to ever live. What Duran fights have you seen? Or what footage of Willie Pep? How much of Chavez?

It's not about nostalgia, it's about boxing. Pac is great, but there are those just as great or greater out there. Get used to the idea.

[Chempasillo]

Originally Posted by elchivito

Marquez and Morales didn't need to be as explosive as Pacquiao to beat him. As for speed, Pacman is arguably faster, but Taylor was faster than Chavez and look what happened. Both Chavez and Duran were iron chinned and especially Duran he hit much harder than Manny. Duran had ko power up to middleweight. Manny can't ko past their prime welterweights. Prime Chavez beats him by UD and Duran ko's Manny worse than Marquez. Manny would have a vision of God and have a life and death experience after getting ko'd especially by Montreal Duran. He'd have a vision of his long dead dog his father ate, Pacman, and tell him he is not ready to die yet.

yeah what happened was that meldrick was winning on cards and got scrwed over by the ref although he was winning and standing when the ref decided to bullshit him. when somebody is standing, you let him fight. you may not let him fight, if he stand, but looks like a complet bloodied up, was meldrick complet bloodied up? no, so stfu

[Chempasillo]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

So the fast guy always wins? Because Camacho was faster. You can take a look what happened to him in my previous post right there. Timing is more important than anything else.

Pacquiao beats every offensive fighter ever? Is that what you're telling me? That because he beat Cotto and Hatton, he's going to beat arguably the most defensively sound pressure fighter of all time? The one he didn't beat was a past-it Morales, and Chavez would be much more dynamic coming forward than he was.

The fact is that Pacquiao isn't very good on the inside at all. He awkwardly shells up leaving his body exposed and doesn't know how to fight out of a crouch like a conventional swarmer.

Taylor was a much faster volume puncher with greater mass and a conventional orthodox skill-set. And he could shorten up his combinations chest to chest and actually fight on the inside. And PS, he didn't win that fight.

The one thing Manny's got is good mobility. But with Chavez's ATG head movement, he's going to have a hard time landing and avoiding the shots coming back at him. If it stays in the center, Manny can have some success turning him and mixing up his shots, but if Chavez cuts off the ring like he has so many times before, Manny is in trouble. And he's been backed up & cornered by lesser fighters.

Defense huh? You do realize you can defend while coming forward, right?

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Manny doesn't hit harder, isn't physically stronger, and even if he were, he doesn't know how to use it to bully or push back an opponent. It's not his style.

Again, answer the question of who is going to control the range, the angle, which fighter has the better opportunity to land their best punches, and which fighter can sustain and adjust as the fight continues.

You're picking the flashier guy who you like better, and offer nothing substantive about why he'd win beyond broad generalizations that don't make sense or apply.



It's about who you beat. Not how many pounds you gained. Pacquiao's an ATG, but there are plenty more accomplished. Chavez is generally on par with Pacquiao in many ways, but you're not picking based on knowledge or analysis. You like Pacquiao better.

Duran? Duran is possibly one of the worst match-ups for Manny available. Seriously, watch him counter, slip, pressure, circle, one of the most complete, tenacious, durable, technically sound fighters to ever live. What Duran fights have you seen? Or what footage of Willie Pep? How much of Chavez?

It's not about nostalgia, it's about boxing. Pac is great, but there are those just as great or greater out there. Get used to the idea.

mostly it is this way. on top manny being faster, manny is overall more skilled than chavez. chavez did not climb 10 divisions and lost most of his big fights vs de la hoya, pernell, tszyu or taylor.

I found it more impressiv beating up everybody and going up 10, that is greater than what chavez did by fighting like 60 tomato cans like his son, to build up his career, sparring it was at best.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

yeah what happened was that meldrick was winning on cards and got scrwed over by the ref although he was winning and standing when the ref decided to bullshit him. when somebody is standing, you let him fight. you may not let him fight, if he stand, but looks like a complet bloodied up, was meldrick complet bloodied up? no, so stfu

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Media/...k_Taylor_S.jpg

VS

http://s3.vidimg02.popscreen.com/ori...ick-taylor.jpg

[Chempasillo]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Media/...k_Taylor_S.jpg

VS

http://s3.vidimg02.popscreen.com/ori...ick-taylor.jpg

oh a swollen eye, so rare in boxing

http://2020proof.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/busted.jpg

he lost like a gallon of blood and they let him fight.

in chavez - taylor fight, meldrich wins on cards and than in the last round, the ref doesn't let hm go on, altough meldrick is able to go on just bullshit

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

mostly it is this way. on top manny being faster, manny is overall more skilled than chavez. chavez did not climb 10 divisions and lost most of his big fights vs de la hoya, pernell, tszyu or taylor.

I found it more impressiv beating up everybody and going up 10, that is greater than what chavez did by fighting like 60 tomato cans like his son, to build up his career, sparring it was at best.

How is he more skilled?

Chavez has the better defense; tighter guard, better parrying skills, better head movement, responsible offense.

Chavez has the better balance; never runs into shots, I believe never dropped in his prime, always in position to throw.

Chavez has the better punching technique, cut off a ring better, and guarded his body much better.

Chavez was past his prime against all of the fighters you've mentioned. Even though he was game against Whitaker, he's a better fighter than Manny's ever faced.

Guerrero went up 6 divisions instead of 3, does he rank higher than Chavez? Who you beat is what matters, not how many pounds you gain.

I don't even like Chavez more than Pacquiao;I'm a fan of both evenly, if anything a little moreso of Manny's. But it's plain as day Pacquiao has a hard time with him at best. Your analysis is lazy to non-existent. Go back and actually watch his career. Camacho, Haugen, Taylor, Rosario, Roger Mayweather, would all rule their respective divisions today. Chavez beat them all. Tomato cans are the last thing you can call them.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

oh a swollen eye, so rare in boxing

http://2020proof.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/busted.jpg

he lost like a gallon of blood and they let him fight.

in chavez - taylor fight, meldrich wins on cards and than in the last round, the ref doesn't let hm go on, altough meldrick is able to go on just bullshit

He was getting his shit pushed in and didn't respond to the referee. If you think it's a bullshit call, there's always the rematch not too much later.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DyAckom5JM[/ame]

[Chempasillo]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

How is he more skilled?

Chavez has the better defense; tighter guard, better parrying skills, better head movement, responsible offense.

Chavez has the better balance; never runs into shots, I believe never dropped in his prime, always in position to throw.

Chavez has the better punching technique, cut off a ring better, and guarded his body much better.

Chavez was past his prime against all of the fighters you've mentioned. Even though he was game against Whitaker, he's a better fighter than Manny's ever faced.

Guerrero went up 6 divisions instead of 3, does he rank higher than Chavez? Who you beat is what matters, not how many pounds you gain.

I don't even like Chavez more than Pacquiao;I'm a fan of both evenly, if anything a little moreso of Manny's. But it's plain as day Pacquiao has a hard time with him at best. Your analysis is lazy to non-existent. Go back and actually watch his career. Camacho, Haugen, Taylor, Rosario, Roger Mayweather, would all rule their respective divisions today. Chavez beat them all. Tomato cans are the last thing you can call them.

manny goes in faster and goes out faster.

manny steps better to the side after punching.

manny counter punches better.

manny is better offensivly.

manny is overall just better. he is mre skilled, he is blesse with a more athletic body and if a prime manny wouldve got in a ring with a prime chavez, than chavez would have been put down, TKO or KO.

[ricardinho]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

manny goes in faster and goes out faster.

manny steps better to the side after punching.

manny counter punches better.

manny is better offensivly.

manny is overall just better. he is mre skilled, he is blesse with a more athletic body and if a prime manny wouldve got in a ring with a prime chavez, than chavez would have been put down, TKO or KO.

and Marquez never lost to him

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

manny goes in faster and goes out faster.

manny steps better to the side after punching.

manny counter punches better.

manny is better offensivly.

manny is overall just better. he is mre skilled, he is blesse with a more athletic body and if a prime manny wouldve got in a ring with a prime chavez, than chavez would have been put down, TKO or KO.

Going in and out is not a fundamental skill, it's a style. He hops around better than Robinson and Hearns, he's not beating them, is he?

He's not the superior counter-puncher. That's just blatantly false. Chavez compliments his ATG head movement with accurate counters Manny doesn't use. The very best you could say is that they're even.

"Better offensively" is not a skill. Try again.

Can you actually address anything I mentioned? Better guard, parrying, head movement, balance, cutting off of the ring, more responsible offense, better punching form, guarded his body better, was less prone to counters and running into shots...? Or are you going to concede by ignoring them?

Manny was more athletic than Marquez and Morales. If being more athletic got you the win every time, boxing would be a different sport. Barrera wouldn't have beaten Hamed, Frazier wouldn't have beaten Ali, Hopkins wouldn't have beaten Tito, Duran wouldn't have beaten Leonard, Hagler wouldn't have beaten Hearns, Garcia wouldn't have beaten Khan, Tzyu wouldn't have beaten Judah, and it goes on and on. It's not an argument. If all you're going to do is say Pac wins because he's more athletic, let the thread die and stop embarassing yourself.

[ricardinho]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

Going in and out is not a fundamental skill, it's a style. He hops around better than Robinson and Hearns, he's not beating them, is he?

He's not the superior counter-puncher. That's just blatantly false. Chavez compliments his ATG head movement with accurate counters Manny doesn't use. The very best you could say is that they're even.

"Better offensively" is not a skill. Try again.

Can you actually address anything I mentioned? Better guard, parrying, head movement, balance, cutting off of the ring, more responsible offense, better punching form, guarded his body better, was less prone to counters and running into shots...? Or are you going to concede by ignoring them?

Manny was more athletic than Marquez and Morales. If being more athletic got you the win every time, boxing would be a different sport. Barrera wouldn't have beaten Hamed, Frazier wouldn't have beaten Ali, Hopkins wouldn't have beaten Tito, Duran wouldn't have beaten Leonard, Hagler wouldn't have beaten Hearns, Garcia wouldn't have beaten Khan, Tzyu wouldn't have beaten Judah, and it goes on and on. It's not an argument. If all you're going to do is say Pac wins because he's more athletic, let the thread die and stop embarassing yourself.

Lets not forget ring IQ... history has shown that Manny is slow to adjust

[Drew101]

Originally Posted by Chempasillo

i he climbed 10 divisions, name me 1 fucker who did that!!!!.

Jimmy McLarnin. Baby Face only won one world championship at welterweight but went from fly to welter during his career and defeated champions in pretty much every division along the way.

I actually think Manny vs McLarnin would be an interesting topic to discuss.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by Drew101

Jimmy McLarnin. Baby Face only won one world championship at welterweight but went from fly to welter during his career and defeated champions in pretty much every division along the way.

I actually think Manny vs McLarnin would be an interesting topic to discuss.

Don't forget Duran.. started at bantamweight and finished at Super Middleweight.