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Old 01-05-2013, 09:54 AM   #46
HOUDINI
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

I think the best proof is watching the fight film. I remember as a teen watching the knockdown literally frame by frame. My parents had a film spilcer with a 3 inch screen. I could run the film, hand cranked, as slow as i wanted. Johnson, as soon as Ketchel ****s his right to throw it, starts sliding to the canvas. You don't see a reaction like this from JJ in any of his other bouts and quite honestly no fighter starts sliding to the floor in anticipation of a punch unless his intention is to fake a KD. I forget what smith said as to the reason for the faked KD but quite obviously JJ wanted a reason to ko Ketchel. Can anyone with access to that interview chime in with details that I have forgotten over the years?
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:00 AM   #47
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
I think the best proof is watching the fight film. I remember as a teen watching the knockdown literally frame by frame. My parents had a film spilcer with a 3 inch screen. I could run the film, hand cranked, as slow as i wanted. Johnson, as soon as Ketchel ****s his right to throw it, starts sliding to the canvas. You don't see a reaction like this from JJ in any of his other bouts and quite honestly no fighter starts sliding to the floor in anticipation of a punch unless his intention is to fake a KD. I forget what smith said as to the reason for the faked KD but quite obviously JJ wanted a reason to ko Ketchel. Can anyone with access to that interview chime in with details that I have forgotten over the years?
that's kinda my point though, the kd itself isn't enough to label it a fix as plenty of people have watched it and concluded it is legit.

I'm tryna say the film doesn't prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:12 AM   #48
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Theron View Post
Why did Johnsons left leg fold in before the punch was landed though, and why when he initially saw the punch coming he instinctively backed away abit and then seemed to realise and stop and fold his left leg in and fall, the way he fell too he puts his left arm around Ketchels back and when he lands on the canvas his left hand perfectly lands on the canvas balancing him, and then once his hand perfectly lands on the canvas to balance him a second later his legs can barely push him up and he seems very dazed and then lands a hard punch and knocks him out, seems abit too far fetched to me
What if Johnson anticipated the punch, moved to avoid it, but just got clipped on the ear?
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:17 AM   #49
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

The chances of a clip to the ear being enough to knockdown Johnson seem a little strange
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:09 AM   #50
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

There is a pretty clear copy of the fight on Youtube. They don't show it in slow motion and just watching the film as is does not provide enough info. In slow motion however JJ starts to the floor before the punch is anywhere near him. I seem to remember that the fight was thought to be a miss match and that Ketchel wore padding in his clothes and high heeled boots for promotional photos to hide the size differential. There is no doubt that the KO was legit but I just don't buy the KD....Johnson just does not try to get away from shots like this by ducking them and he was sliding to the floor pretty much as Ketchel ****ed his right hand to throw it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:26 AM   #51
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
I think the best proof is watching the fight film. I remember as a teen watching the knockdown literally frame by frame. My parents had a film spilcer with a 3 inch screen. I could run the film, hand cranked, as slow as i wanted. Johnson, as soon as Ketchel ****s his right to throw it, starts sliding to the canvas. You don't see a reaction like this from JJ in any of his other bouts and quite honestly no fighter starts sliding to the floor in anticipation of a punch unless his intention is to fake a KD. I forget what smith said as to the reason for the faked KD but quite obviously JJ wanted a reason to ko Ketchel. Can anyone with access to that interview chime in with details that I have forgotten over the years?
Smith doesn't really give an explicit reason why, but says "they pulled a fake knockdown". He describes the knockdown quite accurately, and the fight as a mismatch.
I guess the reason the KD was faked was to add drama to the fight reports and increase the value of the fight film.

Anyhow, I too have been saying this KD was fake long before I became aware of Smith's comments.
I didn't go in to viewing the fighting looking for a fake KD but as a boxing fan wanted to see Ketchel's famed right, and ended up seeing a fake knockdown.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:29 AM   #52
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post

No paper says it was a phantom punch. McVey doesn't like newspapers that ruin his agenda. Nothing new here.

How can you keep parroting this when they clearly did and one was posted here to prove it. Sometimes I wonder about you. Youve got this agenda that really keeps the blinders on you.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:31 AM   #53
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Another point is...if the fight indeed was fake and both men agreed not to throw a KO blow (which Ive read countless times) what is forgotten is that JJ did indeed KD Ketchel earlier in the fight and busted him up pretty bad over the first 11 rounds. Funny I don't remember Fleisher writting much about this bout. You would think of all people he would know the truth since he was best friends (literally) with both men. Unless of course he knew the truth and this is why he did not write much about it????
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:33 AM   #54
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Another point is...if the fight indeed was fake and both men agreed not to throw a KO blow (which Ive read countless times) what is forgotten is that JJ did indeed KD Ketchel earlier in the fight and busted him up pretty bad over the first 11 rounds. Funny I don't remember Fleisher writting much about this bout. You would think of all people he would know the truth since he was best friends (literally) with both men. Unless of course he knew the truth and this is why he did not write much about it????
Good point
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:34 AM   #55
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Are you saying BOTH men faked the KD? My vantage point is that for some unknown reason JJ himself decided to fake his KD to give a reason why he KOed Ketchel. Or are you saying both the KD and the KO were faked?
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:41 AM   #56
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

The point about fleisher not writing much about it
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:42 AM   #57
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Are you saying BOTH men faked the KD? My vantage point is that for some unknown reason JJ himself decided to fake his KD to give a reason why he KOed Ketchel. Or are you saying both the KD and the KO were faked?
No, no one says the KO was fake.
Smith said "they pulled a fake knockdown" but that's possibly just a turn of phrase, like he's referring to Johnson and his backers as 'they'.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:51 AM   #58
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Mr Butt View Post
The chances of a clip to the ear being enough to knockdown Johnson seem a little strange
Not necessarily.

You have a nerve bundle at the base of the ear, and believe it or not, you actually use your ears for balance!
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:06 PM   #59
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

I agree with one of mcvey's earlier posts
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:08 PM   #60
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Johnson appears to be falling before the punch lands,if it indeed lands.
He had agreed to take it easy on Ketchel, and did, as can clearly be seen.

I think Ketchel got frisky ,Johnson saw it coming, went down to make it look good ,and decided to take revenge once he arose.
This is the quote
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