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Old 01-05-2013, 12:11 PM   #61
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Not necessarily.

You have a nerve bundle at the base of the ear, and believe it or not, you actually use your ears for balance!
take one of the hardest hitter middles ever, against a man that "only" outweighs him by 30 pounds, in a fight in which he wasn't supposed to throw with knockout intent and johnson was not expecting it...a flash knockdown is reasonable

if julian jackson tagged dwight qawi with everything he had during a friendly exhibition i wouldn't be surprised in the least if he went down
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:15 PM   #62
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Another point is...if the fight indeed was fake and both men agreed not to throw a KO blow (which Ive read countless times) what is forgotten is that JJ did indeed KD Ketchel earlier in the fight and busted him up pretty bad over the first 11 rounds. Funny I don't remember Fleisher writting much about this bout. You would think of all people he would know the truth since he was best friends (literally) with both men. Unless of course he knew the truth and this is why he did not write much about it????
Fleischer was not best friends with either man. Thats more Fleischer B.S. trying to insinuate his way into boxing history to give himself credibility.

What you are forgetting about Johnson's knockdowns of Ketchel, and there were more than one, is that he kept hauling Ketchel up. Thats how easily Johnson could have beaten Ketchel, he was knocking him silly with light punches. He could have ended the fight in the first.

Its also ridiculous to compare Ketchel-Johnson to Ali-Liston. Ali was the bigger man against Liston and both were heavyweights. Johnson outweighed Ketchel by nearly 50 pounds. People will believe what they want to believe (Gans-McGovern) against all evidence, including what they can see with their own eyes.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:17 PM   #63
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post
take one of the hardest hitter heavies ever, against a man that "only" outweighs him by 30 pounds, in a fight in which he wasn't supposed to throw with knockout intent and johnson was not expecting it...a flash knockdown is reasonable

if julian jackson tagged dwight qawi with everything he had during a friendly exhibition i wouldn't be surprised in the least if he went down

But Ketchel wasnt a heavy and the blow barely lands IF it lands at all and Johnson was on the way down before it even "lands".
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:19 PM   #64
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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But Ketchel wasnt a heavy and the blow barely lands IF it lands at all and Johnson was on the way down before it even "lands".
yeah i fixed that.

and i'm not really commenting on the film, simply the idea that a much lighter man that hit like a truck COULD knock down a bigger man
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:22 PM   #65
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

the camera clearly has frames missing, very juttery, hard to tell what's going on and not enough to say it's fake for me

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78msYCUaQuE[/ame]
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:23 PM   #66
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

looks pretty questionable
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:31 PM   #67
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

after the knockdown, johnson goes after ketchel like a bastard...he CHARGES at him and knocks out his teeth. that does not seem necessary if the previous knockdown was part of the script and johnson could just knock him down at will. he seemed as aggressive there as he's ever been on film, i just don't see him doing that as part of the plan. there was no need for such viciousness if he knew the ketchel punch was coming
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:37 PM   #68
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

There is plenty of evidence that Fleischer knew both men exceptionally well. Nat wrote story after story about both men not just about ring exploits but many after hours shenanigans.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:39 PM   #69
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

That's like the worst copy of that fight film I've ever seen. There are others on YouTube very clear and slowed down to nearly regular motion. As mentioned I studied the film frame by frame. Johnson was going down way before the punch landed.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:03 AM   #70
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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There is plenty of evidence that Fleischer knew both men exceptionally well. Nat wrote story after story about both men not just about ring exploits but many after hours shenanigans.

I knew Elvis and we had some wild and crazy times.

If I write that enough times, over and over, would it be considered "plenty of evidence" that Elvis and I were great friends?
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:04 AM   #71
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

If Nat were trying to make a name for himself he would have also said he was best friends with Louis through the 40's and Dempsey through the 20's. Although certainly close to both Louis and Dempsey Fleischer does not state he was very close to either fighter. There is no doubt in my mind based upon Fleischers writtings that he had a very strong relationship with both Johnson and Ketchel. Too many intimate details that you dont see him write about other past champion.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:45 AM   #72
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Those saying that Johnson didn't carry the fight at all, then why didn't he stand over Ketchel when he first knocked him down and finish the job straight away? There was a clear effort to carry Ketchel and it is ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:03 AM   #73
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

The thing is Web, Johnson boxed in this manner all the time. It's pretty clear to me he was carrying Jeffries. What I mean by that is that he doesn't aggressively pursue the fighter for a stoppage even though the film suggests one is clearly within his grasp; he looks faster, stronger, better in a technical sense, controls the action and counters and leads whenever he feels like it.

It's unquestionable that Johnson was "carrying" Ketchel IMO, but what that might mean is anyone's guess, because he carried almost everyone he fought on film in one sense or another.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:01 AM   #74
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Now you have.
Thanks Lord Tywin.

The article you posted says the ref saw it, and Johnson said he felt it. Its a knockdown. Nothing new here, Johnson was KO'd by another super middle ( Choynski ) , and perhaps out boxed by a third ( O'Brien ).

The article I posted said Johnson was hurt and buzzed.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:57 AM   #75
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

The KD always struck me as fake and nothing has changed that notion. It may not be... but if it wasn't... it was more of a slip on Johnson's part than a KD. He was GOING DOWN BEFORE the punch even landed. You can clearly see his legs buckeling before it lands. So if it's not fake.. it's more of a slip than anything.
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