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Old 01-07-2013, 01:29 PM   #76
HOUDINI
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Absolutely. You dont start heading to the canvas before a punch lands if its a legit KD.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:38 PM   #77
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Good ole' Gunboat Smith:

"It was no contest. Johnson would pick him up by the arms and set him anywhere he wanted and slap him down. Then they pulled a fake knockdown. This Ketchel was supposed to be a great hitter. He hit him way on top of the head and Johnson, who was a good actor, went down on one hand. His body never even hit the canvas. He got up, hit Ketchel a punch in the jaw, knocked him out that same round."

I still believe it was legit.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:42 PM   #78
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by SLAKKA View Post
Dear old Nat Fleischer, in his books Black Dynamite and the Michigan Assassin refers to the KD with some doubt.
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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Another point is...if the fight indeed was fake and both men agreed not to throw a KO blow (which Ive read countless times) what is forgotten is that JJ did indeed KD Ketchel earlier in the fight and busted him up pretty bad over the first 11 rounds. Funny I don't remember Fleisher writting much about this bout. You would think of all people he would know the truth since he was best friends (literally) with both men. Unless of course he knew the truth and this is why he did not write much about it????
I named the two books for a reason.
Do u want to put some $$$ on it??
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:03 PM   #79
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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If you watch when Ketchel knocks down Johnson i always thought it looked weird if you see the right hand Ketchel throws is very telegraphed and Johnson steps back on instinct right at the start of it but stops and then if you watch his left leg it folds towards his right leg before the punch by Ketchel actually lands and the punch seems to actually go right over his head

4:09

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If it was fake what was the point in Johnson faking going down? unless i've just been watching for too long and am seeing things



Jesus was Johnson ever legitimately beat or knocked down according to people on here? It is excuse after excuse for everything that ever happened to the guy.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:21 PM   #80
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Jesus was Johnson ever legitimately beat or knocked down according to people on here? It is excuse after excuse for everything that ever happened to the guy.
I'm not a fan of Johnson but this one just looks set up
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:23 PM   #81
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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after the knockdown, johnson goes after ketchel like a bastard...he CHARGES at him and knocks out his teeth. that does not seem necessary if the previous knockdown was part of the script and johnson could just knock him down at will. he seemed as aggressive there as he's ever been on film, i just don't see him doing that as part of the plan. there was no need for such viciousness if he knew the ketchel punch was coming
I also don't think Johnson after being legitimately knocked down would go after him like that so uncautious, he was known for being cautious
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:32 PM   #82
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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I also don't think Johnson after being legitimately knocked down would go after him like that so uncautious, he was known for being cautious
true but he knocked out two damn teeth. why do that if you weren't pissed or wanted to end it IMMEDIATELY?

i'm halfway with this: i think mcgrain made a good point and the he was carrying ketchel. Like always. I think that Johnson (i know i know blasphemy) may have slipped. When watching the footage it looks he was moving to avoid it, ****ed up, got a bit clipped and went down.

Then, probably ****ing embarassed and pissed that Ketchel may have thrown a real punch, he drilled the ****ed out of Ketchel.

I just have trouble buying that he went down, as part of the plan, then said "alright, good job Stan. Now I'll just charge at you, uncharacteristically barbaric and knock your ****ing teeth out. Here's your share of the money...Stan...Stan?"
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:45 PM   #83
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

I just looked through 50 years at ringside. There is a full chapter on ketchel and another on Johnson. I don't find a single mention of the JJ/Ketchel bout. Lots of personal info concerning Ketchel as well as Johnson. Fleischer stated that he requested covering Ketchels bouts while a news reporter and this is how he became close to him.

Johnson does not avoid punches by falling to the floor. He was known as the greatest blocker and feinted in boxing history. Yet he makes no effort to block this punch instead he slides to the canvas. Ketchel ****s his right, JJ heads to the canvas. What really happened is anyones guess but that KD has remained a big mystery throughout boxing history.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:06 PM   #84
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Well maybe because that's not the books i named.
Hello?

Last edited by SLAKKA; 01-07-2013 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:26 PM   #85
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Johnson and Ketchel never fought. That was Ketchels twin brother Fabian Ketchel. In a copy of Boxing Babylon I read while huffing butane I remember the doctor that performed the autopsy on Ketchel said that Ketchel had all his teeth intact, which surprised him because he knew the story of Johnson knocking his teeth out. Ketchel knew exactly when his twin was to fall and bet accordingly. After the fight Ketchel purchased a $7500 automobile (which was more than his purse at $5000) and a baboon named Mike 'Twin' Monkeyvan.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:36 PM   #86
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Johnson and Ketchel never fought. That was Ketchels twin brother Fabian Ketchel. In a copy of Boxing Babylon I read while huffing butane I remember the doctor that performed the autopsy on Ketchel said that Ketchel had all his teeth intact, which surprised him because he knew the story of Johnson knocking his teeth out. Ketchel knew exactly when his twin was to fall and bet accordingly. After the fight Ketchel purchased a $7500 automobile (which was more than his purse at $5000) and a baboon named Mike 'Twin' Monkeyvan.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:50 AM   #87
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

This is a very good, interesting thread.

Im of the same train of thought as most here.

Johnson and Ketchel had an 'agreement' for at least a certain amount of rounds, not a 'fix' as such. Now a possibilty that ive thought about is that at the time of Johnsons 'knockdown', they were in and around the agreed minimum rounds and Ketchel tried to be smart and shanghai Johnson. Johnson read it a bit late and tried to ride the punch. He got back up and punished Ketchel.
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:28 AM   #88
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Rico Spadafora View Post


Jesus was Johnson ever legitimately beat or knocked down according to people on here? It is excuse after excuse for everything that ever happened to the guy.
Making excuses for Johnson, who avoided the 4-5 best challengers while champion, and struggled with draws, and knockdowns vs smaller men as champion is the fools gold currency here.
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:59 AM   #89
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

After all the good posts and points of view I still agree with mcvey


Has anyone changed their minds as the thread has progressed
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:35 AM   #90
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

I just honestly don't understand how people can view that KD as legit. IF you believe there was a fix of sorts in place.. whether that be a min. number of rounds or whatever.. then this clearly means the fight wasn't on the up and up... How can a fight NOT be on the up and up... then we see Johnson going down before a punch lands and people still go... Yup Yup.. that look real to me. HUH??? For Christ sakes it's clear there was some kinda something in play... as Johnson was LITERALLY carring Ketchel. If it walks like a duck.. quacks likes a duck.. It's a duck.
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