Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Rico Spadafora

Jesus was Johnson ever legitimately beat or knocked down according to people on here? It is excuse after excuse for everything that ever happened to the guy.

I believe Johnson was legitimately kod by Choynski when he failed to get up before 10.
I believe Johnson was legitimately kod by Willard after 26 rds, when he was 37 years old ,and had been in the tropical sun for nearly an hour and a half, in a fight he was winning for 20 rds.

Apart from the disputed knockdown by Ketchel who else dropped Johnson in the nearly 15 years between Choynski and Willard? Answer no one.

So really I think your question is redundant.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Making excuses for Johnson, who avoided the 4-5 best challengers while champion, and struggled with draws, and knockdowns vs smaller men as champion is the fools gold currency here.

I have produced multiple newspaper reports of Johnson signing to fight Jeannette on several occasions, only to have the authorities veto the match ,also I've produced reports of Johnson offering to fight McCarty,Langford or anyone else for $30,00, the same amount Burns had received years before for defending against him.

Johnson struggled in draws?

Well he struggled against Battling Jim Johnson , but I believe a broken arm sustained in the 3rd round counts as mitigating circumstances.


I'm confident the posters on this forum would take that into account when assessing his performance in that particular fight.

I'm also pretty sure they would factor in that Johnson was 35 and a half years old, and had not fought in over a year and a half.

Posters might also ponder the fact that 7 months after drawing with Jack, Battling Jim drew with Jeannette in a fight some say Jim should have received the decision for .

No one has ever suggested that Jeannette had a broken arm in their drawn fight.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

I just honestly don't understand how people can view that KD as legit. IF you believe there was a fix of sorts in place.. whether that be a min. number of rounds or whatever.. then this clearly means the fight wasn't on the up and up... How can a fight NOT be on the up and up... then we see Johnson going down before a punch lands and people still go... Yup Yup.. that look real to me. HUH??? For Christ sakes it's clear there was some kinda something in play... as Johnson was LITERALLY carring Ketchel. If it walks like a duck.. quacks likes a duck.. It's a duck.

Yeah, the film is enough for me. Should be enough for anyone with normal eyesight.

I don't know, or care, if there was any 'pre-arrangement' regarding the fight. I can see that Johnson is carrying Ketchel - literally holding him up - and I can see that the KD is fake.

[Mendoza]

mcvey I have produced multiple newspaper reports of Johnson signing to fight Jeannette on several occasions, only to have the authorites veto the match ,also I've produced reports of Johnson offering to fight McCarty,Langford or anyone else for $30,00, the same amount Burns had received years before for defending against him.

Means Jack. Johnson could have fought in England, France, or Australia. There were big time offers in the press by known promoters. Johnson avoided Langford, McVey, and Jeanette. He did not fight Gunboat Smith either.
As Jeanette put it, when Jack became champion he forgot his old friends and drew the color line against his own people.

Johnson struggled in draws?

Well he struggled against Battling Jim Johnson , but I believe a broken arm sustained in the 3rd round counts as mitigating circumstances.

Forgetting The O'brien match, where the much lighter man was the better according to local sources in six rounds? Battling Jim was the better in the draw, and the NY times says the arm injury happened in round 10, not round 3. Don't read Unforgivable Blackness chapter on this fight... you will hate it

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Means Jack. Johnson could have fought in England, France, or Australia. There were big time offers in the press by known promoters. Johnson avoided Langford, McVey, and Jeanette. He did not fight Gunboat Smith either.
As Jeanette put it, when Jack became champion he forgot his old friends and drew the color line against his own people.



Forgetting The O'brien match, where the much lighter man was the better according to local sources in six rounds? Battling Jim was the better in the draw, and the NY times says the arm injury happened in round 10, not round 3. Don't read Unforgivable Blackness chapter on this fight... you will hate it

I read Ward's book the year it came out, it's here in my study, fine book!


"Nothing much happened for two rounds,both were counterpunchers,and Battling Jim seemed especially wary.
In the third, the champion launched an attack,that sent the younger man reeling.Then, for no apparent reason he pulled back.There were cries of Fake"!
"Some customers called for their money back.
In fact the champion had fractured his left forearm slamming the challengers head and had to fight the next seven rounds with just one hand ,clinching whenever he could.
At the end it was the younger man who was breathing hard".
Unforgivable Blackness, Geoffrey C Ward.Page 354.

N.B The NY Times did NOT have a reporter at the fight, they filed an AP report.

Now, if there is any sense at all in that bigoted skull of yours ,you should feel as big as fool as I've just made you look.


"As Jeannette put it". When were Jeannette and Johnson ever friends ,old or otherwise?

Jeannette never said one kind word about Johnson in his entire life, he rooted for his opponents and picked against him on several occasions.


Johnson owed him jack shit!


Please produce these" big time offers", and concrete ones please, not publicity talk.

The NASC , the leading boxing club in the Uk offered Johnson a derisory £3000 to defend against Langford.With Johnson to pay his own travel expenses.

Ive produced contemporary reports showing Johnson signed at least twice to defend against Jeannette ,but was thwarted by the authorities. McMahon tried to promote this fight twice but was stalled by the authorities.
McMahon also tried to promote a Langford Johnson fight,[ which Johnson agreed to ,] but he could not come up with the $30,000 .

I've produced reports of the day ,full newspaper reports of Johnson offering to fight Langford,Smith, or McCarty in Canada ,[ for Tommy Burns] for $30,000.

You have produced absolutely NOTHING to back up your claims.

Curley, and Coffroth, the biggest promoters in the world at the time, both stated there was no $$$ in an all black heavyweight title fight.
N B Johnson got a little over $1000 for defending against Battling Jim, and had to post- pone his proposed defence against Moran until his broken arm had healed.

The O Brien match? Johnson was out partying the night before the 6 rounder, and was in miserable shape, it was a meaningless payday for both men. Reports vary as to whom had the better of the affair. O Brien finished with a closed right eye, and had been floored.

Johnson finished out of breath, but unmarked, having dominated the last two rounds.
By the way O Brein scaled 170lbs for the 6 rounder.

Posted elsewhere by Clay Moyle.

"Caught at Ringside
O’Brien weighed 170 pounds and Johnson tipped the scales at 205 pounds.
O’Brien had quite an array of seconds. He had Frank Floyd, Abe Attell, Jack Hanlon, Joe Dougherty and Jack Eagan in his corner. Attell continually advised O’Brien during the bout and his suggestions were valuable. "




Here's a ringside report for you , for God's sake read it and stop uttering complete crap.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Theron]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

I think that Johnson (i know i know blasphemy) may have slipped. When watching the footage it looks he was moving to avoid it, fucked up, got a bit clipped and went down.

I just don't see Johnson making a mistake that big i mean Ketchel telegraphed the shit out of that right hand and he moves to avoid it slightly and then stops why would Johnson just think oh ill stop moving back and easily get away instead ill go forward and collapse my leg inwards while leaning forward to completely ruin my balance, i do not see Johnson making a mistake like that he even sad himself ''I made a lot of mistakes out of the ring, but I never made any in it''

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Theron

I just don't see Johnson making a mistake that big i mean Ketchel telegraphed the shit out of that right hand and he moves to avoid it slightly and then stops why would Johnson just think oh ill stop moving back and easily get away instead ill go forward and collapse my leg inwards while leaning forward to completely ruin my balance, i do not see Johnson making a mistake like that he even sad himself ''I made a lot of mistakes out of the ring, but I never made any in it''

Of the posts that commented directly on the legitimacy of the knockdown,12 thought it was genuine ,48 thought it was fake.

[Theron]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Of the posts that commented directly on the legitimacy of the knockdown,12 thought it was genuine ,48 thought it was fake.