Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

[Russell]

From abuse he was taking in a fight?

Did his status let him take beatings that would have refs stopping other fights?

Eh?

[Bokaj]

That would be the Holmes-fight in that case, which I believe was stopped by Ali's corner. Otherwise, no.

[apollack]

Well, the only time he was tko'd was the Holmes fight. It was a good and proper stoppage from the corner. Could he have lasted the distance? Hell yes. Should he have been allowed to do so? Hell no. He was just a human punching bag in that fight and had absolutely zero offense. Angelo Dundee did the right thing. Ali was done for at that point and had no business coming back at all. Nature beats you every time, eventually.

No other Ali fight should have been stopped. The only other one that you could even remotely make an argument would be Frazier I when Ali got really hurt in the 11th round, and only the fastest of fast refs would have even remotely thought of stopping it. He was badly hurt, but he did enough to get out, and Mercante properly gave him a chance to recover.

[Russell]

Didn't Shavers basically make Ali a punching bag for a good part of their 15 round fight?

[kenmore]

Originally Posted by Russell

From abuse he was taking in a fight?

Did his status let him take beatings that would have refs stopping other fights?

Eh?

Never.

Until the Holmes bout, Ali never took such a beating that he was in danger of being stopped. The only opponent who really had Ali in trouble was Frazier -- in their third fight -- and even then Ali was never close to going down or needing intervention by the referee.

[C. M. Clay II]

Originally Posted by Russell

Didn't Shavers basically make Ali a punching bag for a good part of their 15 round fight?

No.

[Hank]

He tried to quit in Liston fight, Dundee took stool out from under him. That worke dout, since Liston decided to take his turn to quit two rounds later.

In Manila fight he tried to quit after 11th, Dundee and Pachecho made him go out. That could have been tko if a Vegas type commisioner were in corner, or a doctor.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by Russell

Didn't Shavers basically make Ali a punching bag for a good part of their 15 round fight?

A few people felt Shaver may have won, but not cause he made Ali punching bag. Niether took a beating in that fight, and Shavers landed, but never too cleanly.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Hank

A few people felt Shaver may have won, but not cause he made Ali punching bag. Niether took a beating in that fight, and Shavers landed, but never too cleanly.

Shavers actually landed a few totally flush right hands. Even Ali was affected.

[Addie]

Shavers was hurt in the 15th in his fight with Ali.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by selfkill

Shavers was hurt in the 15th in his fight with Ali.

It was more a case of exhaustion, Shavers was not big on stamina, and had trouble in any fight that went longer than 5 or 6 rounds. Actually, Shavers was not good 90% of time he stepped up in competion--Lyle, Holmes, Ali, Quarry---Randy Cobb! He also lost to Ron Stander by ko.

[abraq]

Originally Posted by Hank

He tried to quit in Liston fight, Dundee took stool out from under him. That worke dout, since Liston decided to take his turn to quit two rounds later.

In Manila fight he tried to quit after 11th, Dundee and Pachecho made him go out. That could have been tko if a Vegas type commisioner were in corner, or a doctor.

Regarding the 1st Liston fight, it is true that Ali wanted to discontinue. But it was because he was temporarily blinded by some substance in Listons' gloves which had got into his eyes. It definitely wasn't because he was taking a beating.

As for Frazier III, I have never heard that such an episode took place. The fact is, it was Joe Frazier who had to ultimately quit.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by abraq

Regarding the 1st Liston fight, it is true that Ali wanted to discontinue. But it was because he was temporarily blinded by some substance in Listons' gloves which had got into his eyes. It definitely wasn't because he was taking a beating.

As for Frazier III, I have never heard that such an episode took place. The fact is, it was Joe Frazier who had to ultimately quit.

Abraq, it was reported after fight, and in years after fight, but is sort of forgotton. Dundee and Ali have both spoken of it, especially Dundee. Also, it has been said by Dundee and Pacheco that if Frazier had stood up to come out for round 15 they may have stopped fight. I don't hav e link, but check out New York Times, or any old newspapers that are online, you can find reprts from days after fight.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Russell

Didn't Shavers basically make Ali a punching bag for a good part of their 15 round fight?

Yes. Ali said he doesn't remember this fight, and Dundee might have been close to stopping it.

The Shavers fight was perhaps the one that did the most permant damage to Ali. Ali was older and on the decline. Shavers had Ali hurt a few times. Ali fakes it, and Shavers bought it. Why Shavers did not go in for the finish is beyond me. Maybe Shavers was mindful of the rope a dope and Ali's counter right hand.

BTW, I’d like to score this fight for myself. It could have been a gift decision for Ali.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Hank

Abraq, it was reported after fight, and in years after fight, but is sort of forgotton. Dundee and Ali have both spoken of it, especially Dundee. Also, it has been said by Dundee and Pacheco that if Frazier had stood up to come out for round 15 they may have stopped fight. I don't hav e link, but check out New York Times, or any old newspapers that are online, you can find reprts from days after fight.

There's a lot of rumours about that. Personally, I don't think Ali would have quit, nothing he ever did in any other fight suggested he would. Hell, he continued a losing fight with a broken jaw against Norton, so why would he have quit against Frazier when he was clearly winning?

Anyway, that wasn't what the thread was about. The question was if Ali's reputation at any time stopped the ref from stepping in, and that certainly wasn't the case in Manilla. Frazier was almost out on his feet in the 14:th and his eyes was closed, so if the ref would have stopped anybody it would have been him.