Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-11-2008, 04:47 PM   #16
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
Also, it has been said by Dundee and Pacheco that if Frazier had stood up to come out for round 15 they may have stopped fight.
If they said that then i think it was done to produce a sensational story rather than tell a true story. Ali, while exhausted and battered, beat the living crap out of Frazier in the 14th with Frazier not being able to do much in return. If they would've considering quitting, then it would've been a few rounds earlier.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-11-2008, 11:10 PM   #17
Hank
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,232
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Yes. Ali said he doesn't remember this fight, and Dundee might have been close to stopping it.

The Shavers fight was perhaps the one that did the most permant damage to Ali. Ali was older and on the decline. Shavers had Ali hurt a few times. Ali fakes it, and Shavers bought it. Why Shavers did not go in for the finish is beyond me. Maybe Shavers was mindful of the rope a dope and Ali's counter right hand.

BTW, I’d like to score this fight for myself. It could have been a gift decision for Ali.
I was at that fight, and have not seen it in entierty since. I remember thinking it was a draw, or for Shavers. I do remember that (to me) Shavers did not land from good enough distance to really hurt Ali, and Ali holding a lot throughout fight (as usual)

I could watch it now and feel different on scoring, would not be first time it has happened.
Hank is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 12:15 PM   #18
abraq
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: City - Guwahati, State - Assam, Country - India.
Posts: 687
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
Abraq, it was reported after fight, and in years after fight, but is sort of forgotton. Dundee and Ali have both spoken of it, especially Dundee. Also, it has been said by Dundee and Pacheco that if Frazier had stood up to come out for round 15 they may have stopped fight. I don't hav e link, but check out New York Times, or any old newspapers that are online, you can find reprts from days after fight.
Thank you, Hank. Ali had a habit of deriding his opponents before the fight and praising them after it. In both instances he went overboard. His expression of a 'near death experience' in the third Frazier fight is an example. Don't get me wrong. Frazier gave Ali a really tough fight. But if you watch it closely, you will find that Ali was in much better shape at the end of it all than Frazier.

As for Dundee and Pacheco, why would they want to stop the fight if Frazier had come out for the final round after seeing the terrific display put on by Ali in the 14th and also that Joe was literally blinded. Did they really say and mean that? If so, a debate may be started as to whose corner they were raelly in, that night.
abraq is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 12:34 PM   #19
round15
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,681
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Willie the "worm" Monroe was sitting behind Ali's corner at ringside in Manilla. It's been documented previously and mentioned in an Ali biography by Dr. Pacheco, that Ali wanted his gloves cut off after the 15th round. Ali was quoted as saying "cut these things off, I ain't going back out there, that man's crazy." Padilla went to Frazier's corner first after the 14th round, which is justified because Ali won the round convincingly and had Frazier staggered. Dundee was the only one in the corner ignoring Ali's notion to quit the fight and continued to rub his legs down for the 15th round. Was Ali punched out? Definitely. I believe Frazier was shot as well but still had more stamina to go out for the last round. Many fans of Ali deny the fact that he wanted to quit after the 14th round, but Pacheco and Monroe have validated what was said in the corner.
round15 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 12:49 PM   #20
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,181
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Even if he said it I can't believe he really meant it. Honestly, does anyone, Ali-fan or not, see him quitting - with three minutes left, way ahead of an opponent that was more or less defenseless?

Ali himself said he was considering to quit, but I just don't think he ever would. I think it's more likely that Frazier would have met his death in that ring than that he would have won, had Futch not stopped him. But the most likely ending would probably have been a UD for Ali.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 02:05 PM   #21
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,356
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
Abraq, it was reported after fight, and in years after fight, but is sort of forgotton. Dundee and Ali have both spoken of it, especially Dundee. Also, it has been said by Dundee and Pacheco that if Frazier had stood up to come out for round 15 they may have stopped fight. I don't hav e link, but check out New York Times, or any old newspapers that are online, you can find reprts from days after fight.
Ali wanting to quit after the 11th in manila is news to me ,neither is it in Dundees ,or Pachecos books.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 02:50 PM   #22
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,104
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by round15
Willie the "worm" Monroe was sitting behind Ali's corner at ringside in Manilla. It's been documented previously and mentioned in an Ali biography by Dr. Pacheco, that Ali wanted his gloves cut off after the 15th round. Ali was quoted as saying "cut these things off, I ain't going back out there, that man's crazy." Padilla went to Frazier's corner first after the 14th round, which is justified because Ali won the round convincingly and had Frazier staggered. Dundee was the only one in the corner ignoring Ali's notion to quit the fight and continued to rub his legs down for the 15th round. Was Ali punched out? Definitely. I believe Frazier was shot as well but still had more stamina to go out for the last round. Many fans of Ali deny the fact that he wanted to quit after the 14th round, but Pacheco and Monroe have validated what was said in the corner.
Yes. Ali said if Fraizer looked active on his corner at the end of the 14th round in Minilla, he was thinking of calling it quits too. After Ali won the match, he fell on the ring mat for at least a minute. He was dead tired.

IMO, Dundee guided Ali to victory in three key fights. Cooper, Liston, and Frazier III. Without Dundee there, perhaps Alo looses at least two of thes matches.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 03:27 PM   #23
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,181
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
IMO, Dundee guided Ali to victory in three key fights. Cooper, Liston, and Frazier III. Without Dundee there, perhaps Alo looses at least two of thes matches.
I will give you that for the Liston fight, but not for the others. As for the Manilla fight I already stated my opinions, and concerning the Cooper fight Dundee´s involvement in that is exagerrated. On ESPN Classic they timed how long that famous break before the fifth round was and it was only a couple of seconds longer than the usual one minute. So the change of gloves didn't prolong the break significantly and Ali wasn't given an extra minute to recuperate, just a couple of seconds.

In the Liston fight I belive he would have quit if not for Dundee, though. He was clearly panicking and Dundee´s cool head saved the day.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 03:45 PM   #24
Jear
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 787
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Ive seen and heard various reports regarding Ali quitting in Manilla. Ill concede I am an Ali fan, but I dont believe he actually would have.

Yes it may have been the toughest fight of his career, but I think that the same guy who went 10 with Holmes in a fight he had no business being in, the previously stated broken jaw against Norton and even when dropped in Frazier 1 had more reason not to continue.

I think Ali was far to proud to ever quit. Liston 1 was more to show what he thought was an injustice than not having the guts to carry on. Ali is such a great because just like other greats when faced with adversity found a way to not only continue but most times win.
Jear is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 03:47 PM   #25
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,356
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by round15
Willie the "worm" Monroe was sitting behind Ali's corner at ringside in Manilla. It's been documented previously and mentioned in an Ali biography by Dr. Pacheco, that Ali wanted his gloves cut off after the 15th round. Ali was quoted as saying "cut these things off, I ain't going back out there, that man's crazy." Padilla went to Frazier's corner first after the 14th round, which is justified because Ali won the round convincingly and had Frazier staggered. Dundee was the only one in the corner ignoring Ali's notion to quit the fight and continued to rub his legs down for the 15th round. Was Ali punched out? Definitely. I believe Frazier was shot as well but still had more stamina to go out for the last round. Many fans of Ali deny the fact that he wanted to quit after the 14th round, but Pacheco and Monroe have validated what was said in the corner.
Pacheco in his book "Fight Doctor" says that he looked over at Eddie Futch in Fraziers corner ,after the 14th and knew by Futchs expression that Frazier wouldnt be coming out for the last round,nowhere does he mention any talk of Ali being puled out or retiring himself.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 04:20 PM   #26
Lobotomy
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 632
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Dundee and Futch did precisely what chief seconds are supposed to do. Keep their charges going when they want to quit on impulse, and stop them from continuing to take unnecessary punishment when they themselves lack that judgement of knowing that continuing on is futile. (At the moment Dundee stopped the Holmes fight, Ali himself wanted to continue, but admitted the next day to being glad that Angelo called it off.)

The live ringside commentators recognized at the time that Joe was in very serious trouble, and that swelling was imparing his vision. Frazier was also getting knocked backwards in a way he hadn't been since round two of their middle fight. Ali began 1975 by taking out Wepner at the tail end of round 15, and he also collapsed to the deck in exhaustion following that finish in Cleveland. He had already come through the worst of the battle, and may have simply been thinking out loud on impulse when he said to cut the gloves off. Unlike Holmes after Norton, Ali did have enough strength left to rise from his stool on his own, and raise his right arm aloft unassisted. (Holmes had to tell his cornermen to hold his arms up for him.)

Ali was an ironman in 1975. He generated a spectacular championship round assault on Wepner to avenge a fluke knockdown, outlasted a cautiously boxing Ron Lyle down the stretch before finishing off matters with 50 unanswered punches in round 11, and Bugner also boxed cautiously, making Ali do most of the work in the blistering midday heat of Kuala Lumpur. He'd just sent Frazier's mouthpiece flying. His own vision was not obstructed. He had the bout won on points. (Carlos Padilla's scorecard was 66-60 for Ali, perhaps one of the reasons he went to Joe's corner to confer with Futch.)

Okay, I just interrupted this post to review rounds 13 and 14 on youtube. When the bell rang to end round 13, Joe energetically bounced up and trotted off to his corner. But as soon as round 14 ended, he did a little bit of a stutterstep to his left, as Padilla immediately placed his left hand on Frazier's back to guide him back to his corner, and call for the ringside physician to take a look. Even if both Ali and Dundee had wanted to quit at that point, Padilla and the doctor wouldn't have given him the opportunity to concede with the attention they were devoting to Joe's condition.

Padilla stated that he would have given Frazier about a minute before stopping it in the next round. Based upon his behaviour leading up to Futch calling it off, there seems to be little doubt that this outcome could have never gone to the scorecards.

Don Dunphy asked Ali immediately after it was over if there was any time that he considered quitting, and Ali quickly said round ten.

In today's paranoid climate, Ali probably would have received a round 11 eight count in the FOTC by most referees not named Mercante, but I don't imagine any other situation where anything quite that significant would have taken place. Holmes/Ali probably would be stopped at the point where Larry doubled him up with that bodyshot.
Lobotomy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 02:39 AM   #27
cuchulain
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muirthemne
Posts: 10,519
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraq
Thank you, Hank. Ali had a habit of deriding his opponents before the fight and praising them after it. In both instances he went overboard. His expression of a 'near death experience' in the third Frazier fight is an example. Don't get me wrong. Frazier gave Ali a really tough fight. But if you watch it closely, you will find that Ali was in much better shape at the end of it all than Frazier.

As for Dundee and Pacheco, why would they want to stop the fight if Frazier had come out for the final round after seeing the terrific display put on by Ali in the 14th and also that Joe was literally blinded. Did they really say and mean that? If so, a debate may be started as to whose corner they were raelly in, that night.

There was no chance of Ali quitting before rd 15 of Manilla.

He almost KOd Joe in the 14th.

If there HAD been a 15th, with Fraziers eys almost closed, Ali would probably have got the KO.
cuchulain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 04:25 AM   #28
Ezzard
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,035
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Ali could have been stopped in the 11th against Frazier in FOTC. he was certainly taking a lot more punishment than Lyle was when he was stopped against ali.
Ezzard is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 07:08 AM   #29
bill poster
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East London
Posts: 1,897
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
If they said that then i think it was done to produce a sensational story rather than tell a true story. Ali, while exhausted and battered, beat the living crap out of Frazier in the 14th with Frazier not being able to do much in return. If they would've considering quitting, then it would've been a few rounds earlier.
Well put. Dundee has a rep for embellishing
bill poster is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 07:48 AM   #30
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,181
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezzard
Ali could have been stopped in the 11th against Frazier in FOTC. he was certainly taking a lot more punishment than Lyle was when he was stopped against ali.
Just not true.

Lyle was pinned in a corner and Ali hit him cleanly with every blow he threw. He was in other words totally defensless. Ali is clearly easing up on him in the final seconds and waving for the ref to finish the fight. If he went for full throttle he might have hurt Lyle permanently, so desperate and exposed was Lyle's position.

While Frazier rocked Ali badly in the eleventh round of FOTC he never succeeded in pinning him in and landing consecutively. Ali always managed to get away, he was never defenseless. That round is more comparable to the trouble Frazier was in in the fourteeenth round in Manilla than what happened in the Lyle fight.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013