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Old 02-13-2008, 12:47 PM   #31
round15
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Pacheco in his book "Fight Doctor" says that he looked over at Eddie Futch in Fraziers corner ,after the 14th and knew by Futchs expression that Frazier wouldnt be coming out for the last round,nowhere does he mention any talk of Ali being puled out or retiring himself.
I heard this on two different occasions. ESPN and Classic Boxing ran a special about Ali's career from 2002 or 2003. In that video, Pacheco specifically mentioned that after the 14th round of Manilla, Ali wanted his gloves cut off. The only person ignoring him was Dundee because he remembers Ali wanting to quit previously in a fight, against Liston.
Ali had absolutely nothing left after the 14th round because he punched himself out trying to knock Frazier out, yet Frazier still came forward with both eyes closed. Pacheco retired from Ali's corner after the Shavers fight because he couldn't bear the pain of watching Ali get hit that late in his career.
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:21 PM   #32
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

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Originally Posted by round15
I heard this on two different occasions. ESPN and Classic Boxing ran a special about Ali's career from 2002 or 2003. In that video, Pacheco specifically mentioned that after the 14th round of Manilla, Ali wanted his gloves cut off. The only person ignoring him was Dundee because he remembers Ali wanting to quit previously in a fight, against Liston.
Ali had absolutely nothing left after the 14th round because he punched himself out trying to knock Frazier out, yet Frazier still came forward with both eyes closed. Pacheco retired from Ali's corner after the Shavers fight because he couldn't bear the pain of watching Ali get hit that late in his career.
Not doubting your word ,just seems strange that Pacheco didnt mention it in his book ,I looked yesterday ,,if its true ,you would have thought Ferdie would have included that snippet wouldnt you?
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:44 AM   #33
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

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Originally Posted by Bokaj
Just not true.

Lyle was pinned in a corner and Ali hit him cleanly with every blow he threw. He was in other words totally defensless. Ali is clearly easing up on him in the final seconds and waving for the ref to finish the fight. If he went for full throttle he might have hurt Lyle permanently, so desperate and exposed was Lyle's position.

While Frazier rocked Ali badly in the eleventh round of FOTC he never succeeded in pinning him in and landing consecutively. Ali always managed to get away, he was never defenseless. That round is more comparable to the trouble Frazier was in in the fourteeenth round in Manilla than what happened in the Lyle fight.
As I remember it Ali was taking some severe punishment and looked out on his feet at one point. Lyle was not taking power shots in the same way. Ali on the other hand looked like his neck was on a spring. Frazier was landing some mighty blows.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:50 AM   #34
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

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Originally Posted by Hank
A few people felt Shaver may have won, but not cause he made Ali punching bag. Niether took a beating in that fight, and Shavers landed, but never too cleanly.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:24 AM   #35
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Manilla was beyond what a normal boxing rivalry is about. There was genuine bad blood between Ali and Frazier...and there is no doubt that even blinded and beaten, Joe would have gone out for the 15th for more punishment; just on the off chance that he could nail Ali with a desperate punch.

Futch did the right thing in stopping the fight, but Joe protested. ("Sit down, son. No one will forget what you did here tonight" was Futch's reply) For years after the bout, Frazier bore ill will against Futch for stopping the fight. Maybe he still feels the same way today. He was determined to beat Ali at any cost: his health, his sight, possibly even his life.

Ali had realised he was not just in a fight, but in a life or death situation. He had thrown everything he had at Joe, but unbelievably, Joe would not quit. Ali realised he would have to kill him to stop him, and he was absolutely exhausted and had taken massive punishment himself.

Ali has said that Joe quit just before he did. We will never know if Ali was capable of going out in the 15th to face his relentless nemesis again. Ali has said he sometimes dreams that he is in a boxing ring, facing off against Frazier.

Read Mark Krams 'Ghosts of Manilla' for detailed insights into the Ali-Frazier rivalry.
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Old 02-14-2008, 08:06 AM   #36
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

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Originally Posted by Ezzard
As I remember it Ali was taking some severe punishment and looked out on his feet at one point. Lyle was not taking power shots in the same way. Ali on the other hand looked like his neck was on a spring. Frazier was landing some mighty blows.
Lyle was not taking power shots because Ali didn't go full out, but EVERY punch landed. Lyle was standing in a corner and couldn't defend himself, that's how a fighter gets seriously injured. That's how Emile Griffith killed Paret. The ref was absolutely right in stoppin that fight.

Ali was seriously hurt in the 11:th round against Frazier and stumbled all across the ring. But he wasn't pinned down and Frazier didn't manage to land any real clean blows after hurting him. Ali looked in really bad shape but he was savvy enough to stay away and tie Frazier up when he came close until the bell rang. He probably was as hurt as Lyle was after getting hit by the initial right hand, but he wasn't in nearly as exposed a position and didn't get hit as much after getting hurt, and that makes all the difference.
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Old 02-14-2008, 08:52 AM   #37
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

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Originally Posted by Bokaj
Lyle was not taking power shots because Ali didn't go full out, but EVERY punch landed. Lyle was standing in a corner and couldn't defend himself, that's how a fighter gets seriously injured. That's how Emile Griffith killed Paret. The ref was absolutely right in stoppin that fight.

Ali was seriously hurt in the 11:th round against Frazier and stumbled all across the ring. But he wasn't pinned down and Frazier didn't manage to land any real clean blows after hurting him. Ali looked in really bad shape but he was savvy enough to stay away and tie Frazier up when he came close until the bell rang. He probably was as hurt as Lyle was after getting hit by the initial right hand, but he wasn't in nearly as exposed a position and didn't get hit as much after getting hurt, and that makes all the difference.

Just watched both again. Ali was smothering Frazier although some nasty shots were getting through. I still don't think Lyle was taking as much punishment but I can see where you're coming from.
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Old 02-14-2008, 09:37 AM   #38
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

I have no reason to doubt that Ali wanted to quit in Manila, he was human after all.

As some have pointed out this was a "life or death" type of situation. Both fighters had pushed themselves beyond what is ordinarily expected of them, in terrible heat and humidity.

When Ali said it was "the closest thing to death" that he'd experienced, he was being honest. The fight was brutal and extraordinarily physically demanding.

On the first Norton-Ali fight, Ali commented on "Champions Forever" that he didn't know his jaw was broke, and only a crazy man would fight knowing his jaw was broke.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:46 AM   #39
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Fortunately, we have the gift of retrospect; stopping fights is mostly a subjective impulse by referees anyway.

Based on rounds 12, 13, 14 & 15 of The Fight Of The Century, should Ali have been stopped in the 11th?

Should Ali have been stopped at any point of the Shavers fight based on the 15th?

Clearly, he had more to show in those fights and it would have been quite premature had the referee stepped in, even though he was out of his feet in those instances.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:38 PM   #40
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Ali wasn't on the floor in the Shavers fight. He wasn't on the floor till the 15th of the Frazier one. Very hard to TKO a fighter who wasn't down unless he's trapped on the ropes and is being hit with a lot of punches without being able to defend himself. This never happened to Ali in any fight. Forget the Holmes fiasco. After the Shavers fight Ali wasn't medically fit to fight anymore. That's why Pacheco left.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:45 PM   #41
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Ali was down in the Shavers fight.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:48 PM   #42
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Default Re: Should Ali of ever been TKO'ed...

Was he? What round? I know he slipped and went down but i don't count that.
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