Dempsey's punching power

[Saintpat]

The Manassa Mauler no doubt had the power to put a foe on the canvas, but I am curious why someone regarded as such a great puncher had so much trouble keeping them there.

He often scored clean knockdowns, and under the rules of the day could hover over his man and tee off as soon as the guy was up -- almost always completely defenseless. Yet even with this advantage there are several fights where pretty average guys were able to keep getting up again and again after being put down in such a manner.

I simply cannot imagine Mike Tyson or Joe Louis or George Foreman or Rocky Marciano or numerous others being unable to put someone away if allowed to stand there and load up on an opponent who was completely defenseless and unable to block or roll with the punch as they were getting up from the first knockdown.

So why is it that Dempsey, considered such a great puncher, had so much trouble putting people away? Were Firpo, Willard, Gunboat, Miske, etc., all such constitutional marvels that they could take Dempsey's best shots without benefit of any defense, and often not even seeing them coming, and still get up. Or was Jack less of a puncher than history gives him credit for being?

[Shake]

He was a lithe, sharp puncher. The cleaner the cut, the faster it heals. Certainly compared to men like Foreman who's arm was actually a chain with a wrecking ball at the end who didn't care where it landed.

[Unforgiven]

Feather-fisted obviously.

[Theron]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Feather-fisted obviously.

Well yeah Obviously

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Saintpat

The Manassa Mauler no doubt had the power to put a foe on the canvas, but I am curious why someone regarded as such a great puncher had so much trouble keeping them there.

He often scored clean knockdowns, and under the rules of the day could hover over his man and tee off as soon as the guy was up -- almost always completely defenseless. Yet even with this advantage there are several fights where pretty average guys were able to keep getting up again and again after being put down in such a manner.

I simply cannot imagine Mike Tyson or Joe Louis or George Foreman or Rocky Marciano or numerous others being unable to put someone away if allowed to stand there and load up on an opponent who was completely defenseless and unable to block or roll with the punch as they were getting up from the first knockdown.

So why is it that Dempsey, considered such a great puncher, had so much trouble putting people away? Were Firpo, Willard, Gunboat, Miske, etc., all such constitutional marvels that they could take Dempsey's best shots without benefit of any defense, and often not even seeing them coming, and still get up. Or was Jack less of a puncher than history gives him credit for being?

Smith and Miske fought defensively continually clinching, whenever they could .Willard had a great chin. I don't think you can have as many quick kos as Jack had without being a seriously heavy duty puncher. Dempsey ko'd guys who had previously never been floored.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by Saintpat

I simply cannot imagine Mike Tyson or Joe Louis or George Foreman or Rocky Marciano or numerous others being unable to put someone away if allowed to stand there and load up on an opponent who was completely defenseless and unable to block or roll with the punch as they were getting up from the first knockdown.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by Saintpat

The Manassa Mauler no doubt had the power to put a foe on the canvas, but I am curious why someone regarded as such a great puncher had so much trouble keeping them there.

He often scored clean knockdowns, and under the rules of the day could hover over his man and tee off as soon as the guy was up -- almost always completely defenseless. Yet even with this advantage there are several fights where pretty average guys were able to keep getting up again and again after being put down in such a manner.

I simply cannot imagine Mike Tyson or Joe Louis or George Foreman or Rocky Marciano or numerous others being unable to put someone away if allowed to stand there and load up on an opponent who was completely defenseless and unable to block or roll with the punch as they were getting up from the first knockdown.

So why is it that Dempsey, considered such a great puncher, had so much trouble putting people away? Were Firpo, Willard, Gunboat, Miske, etc., all such constitutional marvels that they could take Dempsey's best shots without benefit of any defense, and often not even seeing them coming, and still get up. Or was Jack less of a puncher than history gives him credit for being?

He wasn't a concussive one punch puncher, but he was fast, aggressive and put a lot of his weight behind his shots, which allowed him to deck bigger men than himself. The smaller gloves also allowed him to inflict some horrific injuries on guys like Willard without emphatically putting them away, which adds a little to his aura. I wouldn't personally put him anywhere near a list of hardest punchers though. There are far more worthy candidates in pure power stakes.

[Rajon Rondo]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

He wasn't a concussive one punch puncher, but he was fast, aggressive and put a lot of his weight behind his shots, which allowed him to deck bigger men than himself. The smaller gloves also allowed him to inflict some horrific injuries on guys like Willard without emphatically putting them away, which adds a little to his aura. I wouldn't personally put him anywhere near a list of hardest punchers though. There are far more worthy candidates in pure power stakes.

Yeah no doubt. When you watch Dempsey fights he almost always has to knco an opponent down numerous times before scoring the knockout, you could argue guys back then were better at getting back to their feet after being knocked down and that is probably correct. However as the OP mentioned, after Dempsey has knocked an opponent down once he just stood over him and when the guy so much as got back to his knees or whatever then Dempsey would just smash him back over and that was with lighter gloves too. He caused some horrific injuries did Dempsey and he obviously had good power but I don't think he had Foreman power or anything close to it.

[Theron]

Think of it like this Dempsey was more like a baseball bat or hockey stick being swung very fast with a glove on the end while Foreman was more like a huge boom being slowly swung around but when your hit by it the weight and force knocks you out cold

[Theron]

Originally Posted by Saintpat

I simply cannot imagine Mike Tyson or Joe Louis or George Foreman or Rocky Marciano or numerous others being unable to put someone away if allowed to stand there and load up on an opponent who was completely defenseless and unable to block or roll with the punch as they were getting up from the first knockdown.

YEAH me neither...

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by Rajon Rondo

Yeah no doubt. When you watch Dempsey fights he almost always has to knco an opponent down numerous times before scoring the knockout, you could argue guys back then were better at getting back to their feet after being knocked down and that is probably correct. However as the OP mentioned, after Dempsey has knocked an opponent down once he just stood over him and when the guy so much as got back to his knees or whatever then Dempsey would just smash him back over and that was with lighter gloves too. He caused some horrific injuries did Dempsey and he obviously had good power but I don't think he had Foreman power or anything close to it.

I think fighters trained to react differently to knockdowns in Dempsey's era. You'd sometimes see them lying perfectly flat as though they'd been clean KOed, then jumping to their feet at the last moment to resume the fight. If they didn't do this then as soon as their gloves left the canvas they were eligible for a clobbering. The neutral corner rule allows fighters to take a breather before the action begins again.

[Rajon Rondo]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

I think fighters trained to react differently to knockdowns in Dempsey's era. You'd sometimes see them lying perfectly flat as though they'd been clean KOed, then jumping to their feet at the last moment to resume the fight. If they didn't do this then as soon as their gloves left the canvas they were eligible for a clobbering. The neutral corner rule allows fighters to take a breather before the action begins again.

Yeah and once the neutral corner rule came in to effect, Dempsey began to find it more difficult to put guys away for good. You're right about guys laying down and springing to their feet at the last minute, however that didnt always happen as evidenced in many of Dempseys fight and that is when he took real advantage.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Saintpat

The Manassa Mauler no doubt had the power to put a foe on the canvas, but I am curious why someone regarded as such a great puncher had so much trouble keeping them there.

He often scored clean knockdowns, and under the rules of the day could hover over his man and tee off as soon as the guy was up -- almost always completely defenseless. Yet even with this advantage there are several fights where pretty average guys were able to keep getting up again and again after being put down in such a manner.

I simply cannot imagine Mike Tyson or Joe Louis or George Foreman or Rocky Marciano or numerous others being unable to put someone away if allowed to stand there and load up on an opponent who was completely defenseless and unable to block or roll with the punch as they were getting up from the first knockdown.

So why is it that Dempsey, considered such a great puncher, had so much trouble putting people away? Were Firpo, Willard, Gunboat, Miske, etc., all such constitutional marvels that they could take Dempsey's best shots without benefit of any defense, and often not even seeing them coming, and still get up. Or was Jack less of a puncher than history gives him credit for being?

S, to say Dempsey " had trouble putting people away" ,is not accurate as the record shows. Dempsey had about 25 recorded 1st round knockouts, but there is no FILM of most of the bouts...He, before the Willard bout
in which would have been scored a first round ko, by any referee other than Ollie Pecord, flattened Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, Gunboat Smith,Battling Levinsky and many others in short order with devastating
2 punch combinations that made Dempsey such a drawing card leading up to Willard. I have read many opoinions that the single left hook that
Dempsey landed on Willard's face in the first round, fracturing a cheekbone
was as hard a punch ever landed...Think of the power it took for Dempsey
to aim HIGH to even reach the chin of the 6ft 6" Jess and drop the
previously unfloored Willard ? Ideal power is thrown straight from the shoulder on a line but Dempsey's left hook was a dandy...
In 1920 Dempsey allegedly not in the best of condition, caught up to Bill Brennan in the 12th round with a blazing one-two combo that kod Brennan
and broke Brennan's ankle dropping to the canvas....We rightfully praise
Joe Louis as a devastating puncher for a good reason. But a prime Joe Louis hit lumbering Abe Simon with EVERY punch in the book for 13 rounds
without putting the big target away until the referee stopped the bout...
Can anyone envision a prime Dempsey allowing a big punching bag like Simon to remain on his feet for 13 rounds ? I can't...
There are a lot of posters on ESB that for some reason, like to tear down
the legacy of Jack Dempsey...That is their right, but to imply that the prime Dempsey couldn't hit hard enough to keep a man down, the record proves that Dempsey though not "big", hit with savage speed and force...Give the man his due, I say...cheers...

[MRBILL]

Dempsey for his size of 6' 1" tall and roughly 190 pounds was a great P-4-P puncher in heavyweight history between 1887 to 1960, but the post '60 heavies suddenly became huge monsters with skills and ability, and therefore I have to think that whatever Jack Dempsey could muster up in a modern time machine, I don't think he'd have a whole lotta' success with modern boxing over the last 50 yrs...... Sure he could still hurt somebody bad from the modern era, but Dempsey never fought them kind of guys in the teens and 20's......

MR.BILL

[lufcrazy]

Slowly but surely I'm beginning to buy into Dempsey as a h2h monster.

Just wish he'd fought wills and Greb.