Dempsey's punching power

[dyna]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

EVERYBODY who faced Shavers said that he hit the hardest, him not being able to KO high quality opponents speaks more of his abilities as a boxer rather than his supposed lack of power. What does everyone say about Shavers? Slow, chinny, bad stamina and bad finisher < these go towards him not being able to KO higher quality opponents not his lack of power.

Besides Norton, every other man I've seen in those quotes won against Shavers.

Also it doesn't matter anymore as those fighters never faced recent powerhouses like Tommy Morisson (Mercer called him the hardest hitter), but I think that was before the Wlad fight.
Even if those opponents spoke the truth about Shavers, there are newer punchers.
And Steward whose opinion is very high has said Wlad has the most destructive power, and has never seen a guy with his KO power before. And citing a moment where Wlad knocked somebody out in the gym with a left hook... while that guy blocked the punch with his gloves.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by dyna

Besides Norton, every other man I've seen in those quotes won against Shavers.

I am not sold on that argument.

I think that Young and Ali would be more likley to big up Foreman at the expense of Shavers, if they were motivated primarily by self promotion.

[Theron]

I dont understand it dosent matter if Shavers could knock the guy out cold what matters and the point is that he was the hardest hitting fighter, unless Ali and Lyle ect ect are lying for some reason...

[Seamus]

Marciano is the truest overrated puncher. He was an attrition puncher plain and simple. He wasn't a one punch KO guy unless you were Methuselah bouncing off the ropes into his 7 inch wheelhouse.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by Theron

I dont understand it dosent matter if Shavers could knock the guy out cold what matters and the point is that he was the hardest hitting fighter, unless Ali and Lyle ect ect are lying for some reason...

Er, yes it does. If you're not able to knock a man unconscious or even keep them down for a ten count after hitting them with your best shots then you have no right to be called the hardest hitting fighter ever. What Ali, Lyle, Holmes etc have to say is only relevant to the era they were fighting in. It has no bearing on how hard someone like Tua or Wlad hit who actually have knocked men unconscious and gotten one shot KOs etc.

[Synthetic Decay]

Originally Posted by Theron

I dont understand it dosent matter if Shavers could knock the guy out cold what matters and the point is that he was the hardest hitting fighter, unless Ali and Lyle ect ect are lying for some reason...

It's always easy to give credit to a fighter that you beat, although you are bestowing praise upon them, it doesn't truly matter as you beat them. So the praise is circular.

There is definitely shenanigans with a lot of quotes from fighters.

Shavers doesn't look as destructive on film as he should do.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Er, yes it does. If you're not able to knock a man unconscious or even keep them down for a ten count after hitting them with your best shots then you have no right to be called the hardest hitting fighter ever. What Ali, Lyle, Holmes etc have to say is only relevant to the era they were fighting in. It has no bearing on how hard someone like Tua or Wlad hit who actually have knocked men unconscious and gotten one shot KOs etc.

Calling him the hardest pucher ever would not be overrating him but would just be plain silly as you cannot compare his power to people of other eras. Yes Quarry didn't say much in regards to Shavers power probably because he barely landed anything and was taken out in 1 round.

Tex Cobb, Muhammad Ali, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, James Tillis and Larry Holmes ALL said he hit the hardest and you can take a peek at each man's record to see some other punchers they faced. Another opponent said he hit harder than both Ron Lyle and George Foreman combined. Shaver's wasn't fast, wasn't skilled, wasn't accurate, didn't have much gas or a good chin, things like setting up a punch and timing your opponent were completely foreign to him, he rarely implemented combinations and he was a horrid finisher these are why he could never KO quality opponents. I mean shit if a whole group of people say he hit the hardest than maybe, just maybe when taking into account common opponents, that the man hit pretty fucking hard.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Marciano is the truest overrated puncher. He was an attrition puncher plain and simple. He wasn't a one punch KO guy unless you were Methuselah bouncing off the ropes into his 7 inch wheelhouse.

Rex Layne KO'd with 1 punch

Jersey Joe Walcott KO'd with 1 punch twice

Archie Moore was stopped with 2 left hooks

Harry Mattews was stopped with 2 left hooks

All this opponents were rated in the top 5 or above when Marciano fought and beat them. Please show me another Heavyweight champ who can say the same thing.


PS I guess Foreman was an attrition puncher too because he never KO'd anybody with a single punch

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Rex Layne KO'd with 1 punch

Have you watched this fight? Layne took serious punishment before Marciano landed the coup de grace. Another example of Marciano being an attrition puncher.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Jersey Joe Walcott KO'd with 1 punch twice

His last two fights as the Methuselah of the ring. The first was luck and quick timing as Marciano caught him coming off the ropes, casting his own weight into Marciano's 7 inch wheelhouse of terror. The second fight was just an old fighter giving up before the fight started, knowing he was done, his career was done and not wanting to endure rounds of punishment. See Monzon-Benvenuti II.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Archie Moore was stopped with 2 left hooks

That is not a one punch KO. Moore absorbed a ton of punches before the ancient light heavy withered under Marciano's assault. One punch KO's do not come after you are KD'd 5 times. There is no way the 5th time is a one-punch KO. Attrition KO.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Harry Mattews was stopped with 2 left hooks

Who is Kid Matthews? Moore called him a fraud in the division, plain and simple. A beanpole light heavy who Marciano, petit as he was, outweighed. Irrelevant to any discussion of heavyweight boxing.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

All this opponents were rated in the top 5 or above when Marciano fought and beat them. Please show me another Heavyweight champ who can say the same thing.

Show me a more wanting heavyweight division than that which Marciano ruled. It would be the same as if a bantam ruled the welters for 4 years. An indictment on the available talent.

[Theron]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Marciano is the truest overrated puncher. He was an attrition puncher plain and simple. He wasn't a one punch KO guy unless you were Methuselah bouncing off the ropes into his 7 inch wheelhouse.

Walcott said himself that Marciano was the best one punch puncher he fought, he said he was a better one punch puncher than Louis but Louis was better putting things together

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Have you watched this fight? Layne took serious punishment before Marciano landed the coup de grace. Another example of Marciano being an attrition puncher.
.

Yes I have seen the fight numerous times, Marciano did land numerous punches before the KO like almost every single fight in the history of boxing. It took George Foreman multiple knockdowns of chinny Ken Norton, who froze against punchers, to finish the job are we to believe he is also an attrition puncher because he's never had a single 1 punch KO? Why did you avoid this point in the original post?

Braddock took serious punishment before being KO'd by Louis, is he too an attrition puncher? Same when he KO'd the much smaller Conn.

Originally Posted by Seamus

His last two fights as the Methuselah of the ring. The first was luck and quick timing as Marciano caught him coming off the ropes, casting his own weight into Marciano's 7 inch wheelhouse of terror. The second fight was just an old fighter giving up before the fight started, knowing he was done, his career was done and not wanting to endure rounds of punishment. See Monzon-Benvenuti II.

Case remains it was 1 punch wasn't it? Both times.

Originally Posted by Seamus

That is not a one punch KO. Moore absorbed a ton of punches before the ancient light heavy withered under Marciano's assault. One punch KO's do not come after you are KD'd 5 times. There is no way the 5th time is a one-punch KO. Attrition KO.

With this logic damn near every KO Foreman has was an attrition KO. This can be extended to Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis and many others.

Originally Posted by Seamus

Who is Kid Matthews? Moore called him a fraud in the division, plain and simple. A beanpole light heavy who Marciano, petit as he was, outweighed. Irrelevant to any discussion of heavyweight boxing.


Show me a more wanting heavyweight division than that which Marciano ruled. It would be the same as if a bantam ruled the welters for 4 years. An indictment on the available talent.

Is the word of Archie Moore gospel now? Mattews was a very good fighter with some wins over notable opponents like Lloyd Marshall, Rex Layne, Ezzard Charles, Irish Bob Murphy etc. And since when are we exclusively talking about Heavyweights when the man this thread is discussing isn't technically one?

And Marciano ruling the division is not an indictment on the avaliable talent, there were many big fighters during the era but none of them were that good. Plain and simple. It would be like if a bantam ruled the welterweight division by beating all the best welterweights who happened to be of poor quality.You can't hold this against Marciano because the biggest fighters weren't good. Just because the era isn't ruled by two 6"6 roided up, tag teaming ukrainian brothers who refuse to avenge their loses doesn't mean that it was weak.

Also you have still avoided providing names of other heavyweight champions who have more than 1 punch KO's over rated opponents. Try not to avoid this point again.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Theron

Walcott said himself that Marciano was the best one punch puncher he fought, he said he was a better one punch puncher than Louis but Louis was better putting things together

He did say punch for punch Marciano was a harder puncher than Louis but also said that Curtis Sheppard was the hardest puncher he ever faced. Ezzard Charles rated Marciano the 3rd hardest puncher he ever faced with Curtis Sheppard being number 1 and Elmer Ray number 2.

[Unforgiven]

I agree with a lot of what Seamus is saying. But who was a one-punch KO puncher ?


Even in (or especially in?) heavyweight boxing, it seems that the opponents tend to get up a few times.
And you have to hit them a few times. Even if you are known as a 'puncher'.
Unless you're up against someone who's grossly out of shape or doesn't want to be there, it's unlikely to be a 'one-punch KO'.

Foreman, Tyson, Liston, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, Lewis, Baer ... opponents often took their punches and kept coming in for more.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I agree with a lot of what Seamus is saying. But who was a one-punch KO puncher ?


Even in (or especially in?) heavyweight boxing, it seems that the opponents tend to get up a few times.
And you have to hit them a few times. Even if you are known as a 'puncher'.
Unless you're up against someone who's grossly out of shape or doesn't want to be there, it's unlikely to be a 'one-punch KO'.

Foreman, Tyson, Liston, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, Lewis, Baer ... opponents often took their punches and kept coming in for more.

Which is what I was trying to put across the fact that Marciano can be called an attrition puncher but has more 1 punch KO's over rated opponents than any heavyweight I can recall is an oxymoron. 1 punch KO's particularly at Heavyweight are a rarity even the biggest, and most powerful punchers usually need to either drop them a few times or deal out great punishment before a KO actually occurs.

Not even Wlad with his glorious 245 lbs of rippling muscle who would most certainly KO every Heavyweight prior to the 60's just from the sight of his God like body, could KO an old cruiserweight who was never all that great with 1 punch.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Have you watched this fight? Layne took serious punishment before Marciano landed the coup de grace. Another example of Marciano being an attrition puncher.



His last two fights as the Methuselah of the ring. The first was luck and quick timing as Marciano caught him coming off the ropes, casting his own weight into Marciano's 7 inch wheelhouse of terror. The second fight was just an old fighter giving up before the fight started, knowing he was done, his career was done and not wanting to endure rounds of punishment. See Monzon-Benvenuti II.



That is not a one punch KO. Moore absorbed a ton of punches before the ancient light heavy withered under Marciano's assault. One punch KO's do not come after you are KD'd 5 times. There is no way the 5th time is a one-punch KO. Attrition KO.



Who is Kid Matthews? Moore called him a fraud in the division, plain and simple. A beanpole light heavy who Marciano, petit as he was, outweighed. Irrelevant to any discussion of heavyweight boxing.



Show me a more wanting heavyweight division than that which Marciano ruled. It would be the same as if a bantam ruled the welters for 4 years. An indictment on the available talent.

I see your point S and do not totally disagree with it, but Marciano did knock out Layne's teeth with one shot that's pretty impressive ,imo.

See link below.

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Walcott, in the documentary," The Way It Was ",discussing his fights with Louis ,said Marciano was a better single puncher than Louis.

Mathews was a blown up LHVY but Marciano was the only one to ko him,and as a LHVY Nardico , and Murphy couldnt floor him.

Surely not a bean pole?






You are right in your assessment of his abilities however, see below.

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