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Old 01-20-2013, 08:51 AM   #61
MMJoe
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by Rex Tickard View Post
And what had been "done" to Tarver or Calzaghe, or even a rematch with Hopkins, when those fights had been available prior to the Ruiz fight?

Jones lost to contemporary rivals who had peaked while he was still at the top of his game. Even Johnson and Green were old men in the twilights of their careers when they upset Jones. Jones elected not to fight Tarver or Calzaghe, or rematch Hopkins when those fights were available years earlier, and his current record against them is what we're left with. This is not to say he may not have had justification for failing to make those fights, but his legacy now has to bear the consequences of his choices.

Even if Jones had retired after the Ruiz fight, we still would be left with a lot of unanswered questions, given that he had failed to fight some of his biggest rivals during his run at the top.

Actually, Bob Fitzsimmons began his career down around 147.
Do not get caught up in looking at the number of candles on someone's birthay cake when evaluating a fighters's peak.
Make no mistake about it, Jones peak was over before or more likely during Tarver 2.
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:58 AM   #62
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Jones' "Trevor Berbick" Was Antonio Tarver 2.
How would Ali's career look, him still fighting 8 years after the Berbick loss, losing 6 more times and being KO'd in half of those.
People who would be gaining an interest in boxing at that time would have been thinking; "why are people making such a deal about this Ali guy? he's lost 3 times to Carl Williama and was KO'd in one rd by Frank Bruno."
Fair point, but if they were interested in finding out more info on him, they'd certainly have changed their opinion when seeing him at his peak, and watching all of his great fights.

People watching Roy fight now, have to realise that he's 44, and he's had 64 fights.

An educated person would put these things into context.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:06 AM   #63
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

It would have been nice to see Jones face Ottke, Calzeghe and Michalczewski in the 2000-2003 period.
I don't remember much interest in these matchups at the time, no saber rattling. The most I remember was a commentators mentioning it in passing and not very often.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:11 AM   #64
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Fair point, but if they were interested in finding out more info on him, they'd certainly have changed their opinion when seeing him at his peak, and watching all of his great fights.

People watching Roy fight now, have to realise that he's 44, and he's had 64 fights.

An educated person would put these things into context.
I've heard the same things said about Jones that I've heard said about Tyson. "Beating a bunch of nobodies, then losing to the first serious contender". These are fans that come into the sport and start learning about these guys (Jones, Tyson, etc) after they have already had their best day.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:47 AM   #65
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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I've heard the same things said about Jones that I've heard said about Tyson. "Beating a bunch of nobodies, then losing to the first serious contender". These are fans that come into the sport and start learning about these guys (Jones, Tyson, etc) after they have already had their best day.

They're uneducated idiots that need putting in their place.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:51 AM   #66
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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It would have been nice to see Jones face Ottke, Calzeghe and Michalczewski in the 2000-2003 period.
I don't remember much interest in these matchups at the time, no saber rattling. The most I remember was a commentators mentioning it in passing and not very often.
Fights with Ottke and Calzaghe were never viable. They fought in Europe in a weight class below Roy.

Everyone wanted to see Roy fight Dariusz, but he never agreed terms to go to the U.S.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:01 AM   #67
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

The main difference is that we learned that Ali had an iron jaw because he fought past his prime, whereas we learned that Jones had a glass jaw because he fought past his prime. Entirely different facts were uncovered and so the revaluations of their earlier careers was different.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:47 AM   #68
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

MMJoe,

Quote:
Do not get caught up in looking at the number of candles on someone's birthay cake when evaluating a fighters's peak.
Great quote mate! I love it!
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:04 AM   #69
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

Roy should have retired 9 years ago.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:47 AM   #70
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by Rex Tickard View Post
I don't think it's clear how Jones will be perceived in 20 years. For example, certain wins, such as over Hopkins and Lucas, may be given more credence due to the fact that those fighters went on to win titles. At the same time, retrospect will show that there were a number of long-reigning titleholders in and around Jones' weight class - i.e: Dariusz, Hopkins, Calzaghe, Ottke, Jirov - and there may be even more questions as to why Jones didn't fight some of these co-titlists, moreso than when those fighters were still only compiling their reigns (this is where eventually losing to Calzaghe and Hopkins also hurts his legacy). People may not be so quick to excuse Jones for losing so decisively to fighters like Tarver and Johnson within a year of one of his best career performances. In fact, retrospective may well suggest that Johnson was actually one of his best opponents at LHW, given that he shares wins over a number of common opponents. There also may not be as much sympathy for some of Jones' excuses for not making some of the big fights available to him, especially given the fact that he later defied some of those excuses to make other, lesser fights. He may also receive even more criticism for his involvement in the WBC/Nunn/Rocchigiani fiasco, one of the most blatantly corrupt scandals in boxing history which later led to the WBC being sued into near bankruptcy.


Also, given the increasingly intense backlash against steroid use throughout the entire sports world, how will Jones' own positive steroid test be perceived in 20 years time?
We've discussed DM, Calzaghe and Hopkins.

But who in their right mind, would question why Roy never fought Sven Ottke?

Jirov was a cruiserweight, that was just an option to him in 99-2000 when he considered moving up in weight.


How does losing to Calzaghe, four years after he was knocked cold by Johnson, hurt Roy's legacy in any way?

He was 9 weeks away from his 40th birthday, and Joe on two occasions, had said that a fight with Roy would be pointless.

Roy was knocked out twice in 2004 at 35 years of age.

Losing over 4 years later to someone on points means nothing.


The loss to Hopkins also means nothing.

That was 16-17 months AFTER the loss to Joe.

Going into the fight, Hopkins said that the only guy to truly beat him clean in his career at elite level, was Roy.

At the time, Roy was only 24, and had a badly injured right hand.

As discussed, a rematch couldn't be made due to Hop's demands.

I don't see how losing the rematch way past his best at 41, can hurt his legacy.


It's the same with guys like Lebedev.

According to many people, Lebedev was robbed against Huck, and is one of the best, if not THE best Cruiser in the world.

Roy had been inactive, he'd had a knee injury that prevented him from running, and he came to the ring heavy and at 42 years of age.

It was a competitive fight, and it took Lebedev 10 rounds to get him out of there.

If he had that much trouble with a 42 year old, heavy, inactive version of Roy, then what would have happened if he'd have fought the Ruiz version of Roy?


I don't see how any of these recent losses affect his legacy.

Last edited by Loudon; 01-20-2013 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:49 AM   #71
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
We've discussed DM, Calzaghe and Hopkins.

But who in their right mind, would question why Roy never fought Sven Ottke?

Jirov was a cruiserweight, that was just an option to him in 99-2000 when he considered moving up in weight.


How does losing to Calzaghe, four years after he was knocked cold by Johnson, hurt Roy's legacy in anyway?

He was 9 weeks away from his 40th birthday, and Joe on two occasions, had said that a fight with Roy would be pointless.

Roy was knocked out twice in 2004 at 35 years of age.

Losing over 4 years later to someone on points means nothing.


The loss to Hopkins also means nothing.

That was 16-17 months AFTER the loss to Joe.


Going into the fight, Hopkins said that the only guy to truly beat him clean in his career at elite level, was Roy.

At the time, Roy was only 24, and had a badly injured right hand.


As discussed, a rematch couldn't be made due to Hop's demands.

I don't see how losing the rematch way past his best at 41, can hurt his legacy.


It's the same with guys like Lebedev.

According to many people, Lebedev was robbed against Huck, and is one of the best, if not THE best Cruiser in the world.

Roy had been inactive, he'd had a knee injury that prevented him from running, and he came to the ring heavy and at 42 years of age.

It was a competitive fight, and it took Lebedev 10 rounds to get him out of there.

If he had that much trouble with a 42 year old, heavy, inactive version of Roy, then what would have happened if he'd have fought the Ruiz version of Roy?

I don't see how any of these recent losses affect his legacy.
Also if Lebedev KO'd Roy 2 seconds later, Roy would have went the distance.
One judge had Roy ahead.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:20 PM   #72
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

He has fought on too long and unfortunately it's not only his legacy that is being affected.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:21 PM   #73
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by dyna View Post
Also if Lebedev KO'd Roy 2 seconds later, Roy would have went the distance.
One judge had Roy ahead.
That's right.

A peak version of Roy, anywhere between 175-190 would have toyed with him.

Anybody that knows anything about boxing knows this.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:37 PM   #74
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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He has fought on too long and unfortunately it's not only his legacy that is being affected.
This. **** his legacy. I hope he makes it out with his health intact.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:49 PM   #75
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Ali hung around for a few beatings, but is still the top gun as far as fans and present day champions are concerned.
Now people seem to dwell on Roys opponets being subpar instead of ****ing good he really was.
I don't recall champs pitching so many shutouts with 120 score in 12 rounders. Not Duran, not hearns, not Ali, Not SRR, not SRL. Even when they were fighting 'easy' fights. Ali vs Wepner for instance.

Ali was never knocked unconscious and didn't duck anyone like Jones did.

There is no comparison between the two. Ali was a guy who would fight anyone and proved it. Jones liked to talk about fighting people then would price himself out or make ridiculous demands etc.
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