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Old 01-20-2013, 02:54 PM   #31
johnmaff36
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I think he might be struggling to break into the inner workings due to lack of interest and a miserable reputation, frankly. He hasn't led the most charmed post ring life, there.

Pretty sure he called Chauncey Welliver out on Facebook the other day. Him fighting anybody under 40 is terrifying to me, he's punchy as hell.

As for me, I'd like to think I can box, and I can, a bit, but in the end, it always ended up with me swinging for the fences as hard and as fast as I could, trying to knock a guy over. I was really good at landing the power off the counter or the jab, though. I was rather successful, but I couldn't move, punch, or work it like a Riddick Bowe. His right uppercut is artistry.

I agree with Absolutely! here. Bowe didn't take a true ass-kicking till Golota, but he took PLENTY of punishment prior. His wars with Holyfield, he got hit plenty by Nate Tubbs, by Coetzer, by Tillery, by Biggs...Any one isn't bad, but they add up when you are taking shots like that every time out, and in sparring. Riddick's brain was a speed bag.
Magna, RE Chauncey Welliver. Hes called out more than him and unfortunately hes got a lot of whooping gibbons cheering him on when he does so. Halfwits telling him he'd still be champ and such. Fools are gonna get the man hurt.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:44 PM   #32
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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Coetzer? That was a horribly one sided ass kicking from start to finish. Horribly one-sided. Bowe was looking to finish the fight so of course he was going to get hit with something, but he thoroughly dominated. I don't accept that as an accurate example of what we're talking about here.

The thing is, nobody is doubting that Bowe's defence was standard, perhaps even sub-standard, but there's no way he declined as quick as he did as a result of fighting Coetzer, Biggs, and Holyfield. That's just not reality. Look at the shape he was in for the Holyfield rematch? The guy was lazy and unmotivated at that stage in his career.

Bowe, had he remained motivated and focused even after winning the title, could have achieved so much more in this sport. Look at a fighter like Holyfield, a guy who shipped a lot of punishment against standard opposition, and ask yourself why he didn't burn out? What's the difference? The difference is Holyfield's conditioning, motivation, and will to win was never in question.
Unless Bowe's out of the ring habits involved repeatedly slamming his head against a car door, I don't see how you can tell me that they were responsible for his rapid mental decline.

I honestly think there were physiological reasons. Some fighters just decline a lot faster than others (Meldrick Taylor, Jerry Quarry), whilst some can just keep going little or no appreciable deterioration in their mental state (Evander, Hopkins). Bowe seemed to be cut from the former cloth. While he could take a punch, the accumulative damage just seemed to add up very quickly. And like I said, it wasn't just the professional fights, Bowe took a shed-load of damage in sparring as well.

Even if he'd been a lot more focussed and motivated I can't see him having that much more success in the sport. He wouldn't have struggled against Hide and might have beaten Golota that first time, but ultimately his fundamental stylistic flaws would have led him to the same fate.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Coetzer? That was a horribly one sided ass kicking from start to finish. Horribly one-sided. Bowe was looking to finish the fight so of course he was going to get hit with something, but he thoroughly dominated. I don't accept that as an accurate example of what we're talking about here.

The thing is, nobody is doubting that Bowe's defence was standard, perhaps even sub-standard, but there's no way he declined as quick as he did as a result of fighting Coetzer, Biggs, and Holyfield. That's just not reality. Look at the shape he was in for the Holyfield rematch? The guy was lazy and unmotivated at that stage in his career.

Bowe, had he remained motivated and focused even after winning the title, could have achieved so much more in this sport. Look at a fighter like Holyfield, a guy who shipped a lot of punishment against standard opposition, and ask yourself why he didn't burn out? What's the difference? The difference is Holyfield's conditioning, motivation, and will to win was never in question.
Well, as MagnaNasaki said: often there to be hit in fights + gym wars. A bad life-style doesn't help either, but it's not like he was sniffing glue and fighting illegal bare-knuckle fights just for kicks. He got hit too much in sparring and in fights, and didn't have the natural constitution for it that some seem to have. He was more like Benitez and Quarry in that regard.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

I had him drawing the rematch with Holy but in shape he should have beaten him again.

I don't think anyone around would have beaten him until Tyson in 96.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:18 PM   #35
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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I had him drawing the rematch with Holy but in shape he should have beaten him again.

I don't think anyone around would have beaten him until Tyson in 96.
Interesting. I know that if Bowe was gonna fight Tyson Bowe
would know he would have to have a focused training camp.
How complete would a focused Bowe in 96 be? I think a focused
Bowe could have won a decision or scored a late TKO against
Tyson. Even if Bowe got decisioned or tkoed prob could have
been two or three fights. Imagine that, a triogy with Tyson.
Im getting carried away. Magna nailed it, if Bowe had kept
progressing technically and perfected his craft he would have been
greater. Like if Bowe showed up in the first Golota fight and outjabbed
Golota and stopped him early. I wish Riddick Bowe the best. It
sucks, Im broke and so are my heavyweight heroes. Ahh the 90s
good times.
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:08 PM   #36
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

Is he broke?
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:09 PM   #37
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

There was a stylistic problem with Riddick. He didn't have a good right, so normally he had to be inside a little to land his left hook, and inside was his game a little, but then he was open to body punches left hooks himself. Lennox had a better style for longevity.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

We'll agree to disagree.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:45 AM   #39
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
I had him drawing the rematch with Holy but in shape he should have beaten him again.

I don't think anyone around would have beaten him until Tyson in 96.
Evander, while great, was just one fighter. He brought a certain type of challenge to the ring. Bowe, with his height, physical toughness and inside fighting, had the perfect antidote to neutralising Evander's style and aggression.

He never really fought a good big man until Golota, and by then he was lazy, unmotivated and past his prime. Still, how much of his loss was due to this and how much was due to Golota we'll never really know since we don't have anyone similar to compare his performance against.

It's a shame we didn't get to see him against a wider range of opposition. Would have answered a lot of questions.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:04 AM   #40
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

When you get right down too it Bowe had a really good carer. He won an undisputed championship and aded the WBO which at the time might not have had the status it has today, but it still ment something more than a NABF or Euro Championship. What hurts Bowe's standing is not fighting Lewis at the time. Not getting a rematch with Holyfield right away hurts him as well. At the time he would have beaten them both. The question is if he had a real manager would he had been one of the best.
Had he not avoided Lewis, and gotten a rematch with Holyfield right away. He would have than beaten Moorer, than Foreman. McCall (He would still have the WBC). Beats Tyson than Draws with Lewis and Loses to Lewis.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:27 PM   #41
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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Well, as MagnaNasaki said: often there to be hit in fights + gym wars. A bad life-style doesn't help either, but it's not like he was sniffing glue and fighting illegal bare-knuckle fights just for kicks. He got hit too much in sparring and in fights, and didn't have the natural constitution for it that some seem to have. He was more like Benitez and Quarry in that regard.
That boy got straight used up. You gotta factor in his upbringing in the sport: Gym wars as a boy, gym wars as a teenager, and then, was abused regularly as a sparring partner before he found his legs and his maturity, and started getting abused by his opponents. Even in his blowouts he'd get hit. Add the overeating, the dramatic fluctuations in weight, and if the substance abuse stuff is all true?

That's gonna use a fighter up, fast.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:48 PM   #42
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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That boy got straight used up. You gotta factor in his upbringing in the sport: Gym wars as a boy, gym wars as a teenager, and then, was abused regularly as a sparring partner before he found his legs and his maturity, and started getting abused by his opponents. Even in his blowouts he'd get hit. Add the overeating, the dramatic fluctuations in weight, and if the substance abuse stuff is all true?

That's gonna use a fighter up, fast.
Yep. But looking at a guy like Duran you have to say that inborn constitution really plays its parts. He partied like mad between fights, ballooned in weight just to cut down sharply - but after 100+ pro fights (several of them very tough) and nearing 50 he was still in there and doesn't seem punch drunk or in a really bad way today still.

Patterson was also in his fair share of scraps, but looked really good for a long time. Archie Moore even more so. Both guys took care of themselves outside of the ring, but still.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:03 PM   #43
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

No doubt in my mind that the punishment Bowe took in the ring even prior to the 3rd Holyfield fight and the 2 Golota wars was enough to ruin a fighter. I'm talking about what I've seen. That's not even factoring in gym wars and amateur bouts.

Sure, other fighters have seemingly taken more punishment and still had more left, but there's many more who have taken far less and have been left with less as a result.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:09 PM   #44
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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Yep. But looking at a guy like Duran you have to say that inborn constitution really plays its parts. He partied like mad between fights, ballooned in weight just to cut down sharply - but after 100+ pro fights (several of them very tough) and nearing 50 he was still in there and doesn't seem punch drunk or in a really bad way today still.

Patterson was also in his fair share of scraps, but looked really good for a long time. Archie Moore even more so. Both guys took care of themselves outside of the ring, but still.
Yeah, 'inborn constitution' probably plays a part.

Look at LaMotta. Fighting from 8 years old until he was 32 years old. He said he had 1,000 amateur fights, 1,000 street fights. He had over 100 professional fights.
He was known for his ability to 'take punches'.
90 years old now. Still telling stories, cracking jokes last time I heard.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:16 PM   #45
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Default Re: If Riddick Bowe had the dedication of Marciano? Would he be one of the best?

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Yeah, 'inborn constitution' probably plays a part.

Look at LaMotta. Fighting from 8 years old until he was 32 years old. He said he had 1,000 amateur fights, 1,000 street fights. He had over 100 professional fights.
He was known for his ability to 'take punches'.
90 years old now. Still telling stories, cracking jokes last time I heard.
Chuvalo also comes to mind. Seems lucid as a day, more than most guys his age that have worked desk jobs actually, and he sure took some punches during his career.
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