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Old 01-22-2013, 06:39 PM   #211
KidDynamite
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

Hagler gave away the early rounds and conceded to every single one of SRL demands

He was played by that sly bastard Leonard. Only himself to blame for not realizing what he was doing.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:21 PM   #212
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

Haglar was robbed by SRL with his retirement
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:07 AM   #213
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
To be fair, Ray was rusty, and not back in the groove.

It's all conjecture. I'm reasonably confident in a rematch, Ray would have been better, too.

Again, SRL had every disadvantage. His situation would only improve in an immediate sort of rematch situation.
I'm not sure how much Ray would've improved, though. He certainly didn't look much better in the fights he was involved in post-Hagler.

Ray was indeed rusty and coming off of a multiple year layoff, however I still think Marvin would've been better in a rematch with Ray. He'd have been incredibly determined, and his determination to completely destroy seemed to have faded a bit by the time he got in the ring with Leonard.

Marvin was clearly over confident and ****y going into the fight, which is what cost him early in the fight. In a rematch Hagler would be looking to kill and Ray didn't have the fire power nor the mobility to keep Hagler away for the entirety of the fight.

I still think Ray caught lightning in a bottle that April, 1987 night. Hagler showed up lethargic and allowed Ray to get into his groove for the first half of the fight and ended up narrowly winning on what seems to be 6 out of 10 people's score cards.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:32 AM   #214
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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I'm not sure how much Ray would've improved, though. He certainly didn't look much better in the fights he was involved in post-Hagler.

Ray was indeed rusty and coming off of a multiple year layoff, however I still think Marvin would've been better in a rematch with Ray. He'd have been incredibly determined, and his determination to completely destroy seemed to have faded a bit by the time he got in the ring with Leonard.

Marvin was clearly over confident and ****y going into the fight, which is what cost him early in the fight. In a rematch Hagler would be looking to kill and Ray didn't have the fire power nor the mobility to keep Hagler away for the entirety of the fight.

I still think Ray caught lightning in a bottle that April, 1987 night. Hagler showed up lethargic and allowed Ray to get into his groove for the first half of the fight and ended up narrowly winning on what seems to be 6 out of 10 people's score cards.
Very good points ... And I definitely agree with the lightning in the bottle part !
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:36 AM   #215
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

Kudos to Hagler for staying retired, smartly invested. And never diminishing his legacy with ill faited comebacks ...Tough to go out losing yout tile, by controversial decision. But, no ending up looking like a washed up, has been with his butt on the canvas...
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:56 AM   #216
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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That was certainly the feeling at the time. It was almost like it was some sort of circus sideshow exhibition rather than a serious middleweight title defense. By then, Hagler had just started coming down a bit from the heady success and huge money he'd only really started making two years earlier. I think by then, he'd gotten a bit jaded and maybe disinterested, like he'd climbed all the mountains he needed to climb. This fight seemed then like just an excuse to make a lot of money and "make the papers" as it were.
Yeah, Hagler was expected to kill him.
It was widely known to be a fight happening far too late. A couple of guys past their prime out for a payday, and it was considered a serious health risk for Ray.

It turned out to be a bit of a circus sideshow exhibition in its own way.
Vito Antuofermo even came out and said it was a fix.

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Not a soul thought Ray would win. No one.


Except for revisionist historians on this board twenty-five years after the fact. They were pretty savvy, I guess.
There were some sharp minds who bet on Ray.

Jo Jo Guerra might have known one of them.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:01 AM   #217
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Yeah, Hagler was expected to kill him.
It was widely known to be a fight happening far too late. A couple of guys past their prime out for a payday, and it was considered a serious health risk for Ray.

It turned out to be a bit of a circus sideshow exhibition in its own way.
Vito Antuofermo even came out and said it was a fix.



There were some sharp minds who bet on Ray.

Jo Jo Guerra might have known one of them.
Like that last comment !!
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:15 PM   #218
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Originally Posted by KidDynamite View Post
Hagler gave away the early rounds and conceded to every single one of SRL demands

He was played by that sly bastard Leonard. Only himself to blame for not realizing what he was doing.

I think Haglar thought no matter what demands he gave into he was gonna beat Leonard!...Big mistake!
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:20 PM   #219
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Kudos to Hagler for staying retired, smartly invested. And never diminishing his legacy with ill faited comebacks ...Tough to go out losing yout tile, by controversial decision. But, no ending up looking like a washed up, has been with his butt on the canvas...

Well said!..I have alot of respect for Haglar for staying away and not coming out of retirement for glory he obviously already gained!..Cant say the same for Leonard..Ive always wondered what the hell possessed him to get into the ring with Camacho!?.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:27 PM   #220
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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I'm not sure how much Ray would've improved, though. He certainly didn't look much better in the fights he was involved in post-Hagler.

Ray was indeed rusty and coming off of a multiple year layoff, however I still think Marvin would've been better in a rematch with Ray. He'd have been incredibly determined, and his determination to completely destroy seemed to have faded a bit by the time he got in the ring with Leonard.

Marvin was clearly over confident and ****y going into the fight, which is what cost him early in the fight. In a rematch Hagler would be looking to kill and Ray didn't have the fire power nor the mobility to keep Hagler away for the entirety of the fight.

I still think Ray caught lightning in a bottle that April, 1987 night. Hagler showed up lethargic and allowed Ray to get into his groove for the first half of the fight and ended up narrowly winning on what seems to be 6 out of 10 people's score cards.
Was it a great performance by Ray, Bill?
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #221
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Yeah, Hagler was expected to kill him.
It was widely known to be a fight happening far too late. A couple of guys past their prime out for a payday, and it was considered a serious health risk for Ray.

It turned out to be a bit of a circus sideshow exhibition in its own way.
Vito Antuofermo even came out and said it was a fix.



There were some sharp minds who bet on Ray.

Jo Jo Guerra might have known one of them.

Maybe, but that's different than believing he'd actually win. With the odds given, there's precious little to lose throwing a bet on that horse. Many of those same people probably also placed bets on Hagler.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:17 PM   #222
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Maybe, but that's different than believing he'd actually win. With the odds given, there's precious little to lose throwing a bet on that horse. Many of those same people probably also placed bets on Hagler.
I've laid so many bets on massive underdogs, simply because when the spread is way out of whack to what you actually believe the real odds to be, it's a smart move.

The Ravens against the Broncos two weekends ago? Shit, I didn't think they'd win, but I took those odds, because there was NO WAY one pro football team in the playoffs was nine points worse than another.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:02 PM   #223
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

Not sure if anybody's posted this yet, but it's an excellent and very in depth article about the build up, the fight and its aftermath. It's made up of lots of comments from key people, including the trainers, the judges, and Ray and Marvin. They've even got Bernard Hopkins giving his opinion on the fighters and the fight (he had it for Hagler).

Tons of info and insight...definitely worth a read.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:38 PM   #224
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Was it a great performance by Ray, Bill?
Yes and no. Yes in the fact that he performed as if he hadn't left the sport, but no in the fact that Hagler pretty much blocked and slipped everything Ray threw at him. I saw very few traps that Leonard set actually work.

Sure Ray was throwing sharp straight rights throughout the night and sneaky left hooks, but still Marvin caught most of them on the gloves and shoulders or slipped them. Marvin, on the other hand, landed a lot of good body punches in return. Marvin wasn't very smart with his pressure in the first half of the fight, but he turned it on the 2nd half and imo edged the fight 7 rounds to fight, with Leonard winning 4 of the first 6, and winning the last round. People talk of Marvin giving away the first 4 rounds (I disagree, as I earlier argued my point for scoring the 3rd for Marvin), but don't seem to mention him giving away the final round. He spent the final round trudging forward and taunting and Leonard didn't really do much to win it, but got it because Marvin simply did less.

I gave Ray 4 of the first 6, and 1 of the last 6. Obviously this means I gave Marvin 2 of the first 6 and 5 of the last 6.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:02 AM   #225
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

Seriously, if you watched the fight and then said go back in time to the start of the fight and wanted someone to fight for your life against a monster who would you pick? That pitter patter end of round shit ain't worth squat. Pro boxing is about doing damage. More damage than your opponent. Hagler took it too easily. Srl was fighting for his life. Everyone thought Hagler would chew up and spit out srl. The surprise that srl was still standing was enough to get him sympathy or whatever emotional reaction required to get a dodgy decision.
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