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Old 01-20-2013, 02:24 PM   #136
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Bravo Prime, as you stated, Dempsey's place is cemented in history by
all of his generation up to Ray Arcel. His likes we will never see again..
Burt - what do you say to the fact Harry Greb bettered Dempsey's results?

Against Miske, Brennan, Tunney, Gibbons, Meehan, G. Smith and Levinsky, Greb was more successful than Dempsey.

Greb is likely the greatest boxer of all time, but surely a contemporary of such standing as Dempsey, a fighter who was also much bigger, should have at least replicated Greb's results?

Yes, Dempsey was past his prime against Tunney, but in two tries he couldn't win. Greb fought better versions of Dempsey's other opponents, including Gibbons, lost to them less times and beat them more times.

I thought that a fighter said to defeat the likes of modern 220lbs+ heavyweights would have fared a bit better against Greb's whipping boys.

Can you explain this?
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:38 PM   #137
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

How was Greb more successful versus Levinsky, Smith, and Gibbons?
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:41 PM   #138
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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How was Greb more successful versus Levinsky, Smith, and Gibbons?
More to the point, how was he more sucesful versus Willard Fulton and Morris?

Greb matched some of Dempseys wins and Wills matched others, but neither realy put it all together.
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:46 PM   #139
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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More to the point, how was he more sucesful versus Willard Fulton and Morris?

Greb matched some of Dempseys wins and Wills matched others, but neither realy put it all together.
Greb certainly beat Dempsey's efforts over Tunney.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:01 PM   #140
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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How was Greb more successful versus Levinsky, Smith, and Gibbons?


Greb beat a better version of Gibbons, more times. 2-0 versus Smith. Greb was 6-0 versus Levinsky
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:10 PM   #141
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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But this isn't strictly the case though is it.

Some people thought Levinsky beat Greb.
Not really Janitor. There probably were people, but you're going to have to steer me towards something specific at this point because i'm looking into this fight and every single report without exception is indicating Greb wins 1,2,5 and 6. Maybe you are talking about a different fight, but the fight after which Levinsky was written up as NOT now getting the Dempsey fight and after which Greb challenged Dempsey was the August 1918 fight over six rounds.


Three moths later Dempsey ko's Levinsky. Greb spends the best part of eight years trying to get him into the ring without success.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:34 PM   #142
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Greb beat a better version of Gibbons, more times. 2-0 versus Smith. Greb was 6-0 versus Levinsky
Gibbons also beat Greb. Smith? I don't see a big difference there Dempsey was 2-0 as well and knocked out a 'better' version of Smith. Dempsey blew out Levinsky in 3 rounds. Is that less impressive than all those decision victories.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:36 PM   #143
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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So, we should throw out any new information we have regarding, say, the Colonization of Africa, the taming of the American West or the Presidency of Thomas Jefferson? Should we just stick to the texts and narratives that immediately followed these historical phenomena? I'm a big fan of Roman History. Should I just stick to Polybius and Livy and forget the following 2 millennia of research, interpretation and analysis?
Your points are good and worthwhile.

I am all for continued research and debate on any historical subject! And I agree Dempsey's years as champion deserve no mention among the all-time best's. His title run was impressive.

I believe the essence of Dempsey's time has been conveyed to us accurately enough to establish one truth: Jack Dempsey was one of the greatest heavyweight fighters of all time. In similar fashion, no amount of new research will change certain bedrock truths about the Roman Empire's greatness and influence.

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So, all evaluation of the heavyweight division stops in 1950? 60+ more years of perspective, unearthing of interviews and biographical information, of deconstructing the myths and chicanery perpetuated by Rickard and Kearns, and most importantly of seeing the modernization of the division that followed served to moderate Dempsey's legacy. He was a heavyweight in only the third decade of the sport in any manner of which we know it. He was the first superstar, followed an international massacre spree and came to prominence during an incredible expansion of media and time of affluence. It was a perfect storm to magnify his talents and abilities. People wanted his product and for the first time were able to receive it via radio, via incredibly large gates and an expansion of the press. 60 more years of persecutive is exactly what was needed to put him in his proper historical context.
60+ more years of perspective should not--due to the detachment of time-- change some basic truths: no promotor, however clever, can make it happen for any fighter. Dempsey was the first superstar because, with his ring prowess, he earned that status. Exploding media picked up on Dempsey, because he was worthy to be picked up on as the savage Mauler he was. People didn't know they wanted a product such as Dempsey. There was no precedent for him. He made them want and love Jack Dempsey, because he forged this product in the ring with his amazing skill. By contrast, today, boxing, despite this media-crazy, celebrity-crazed 21st century society, has no heavyweight hero. Why? Because no one has the skills, the uniqueness to. In the end, Jack Dempsey made Jack Dempsey. And only Jack Dempsey is Jack Dempsey, because there has been no other fighter like Jack Dempsey.

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Sam was generous to many white fighters in his estimation. Look, no one is saying Dempsey was a bum. He could punch, he was fast and explosive and aggressive However, he was also reckless, at times undisciplined, ducked the best competition and rested on his laurels for very long stretches.
Was Sam a sell-out, though? He didn't need to say what he said unless he meant what he said. He said it of Jack Dempsey, no other. Sam was not an angling spin-master. He was one of history's greatest fighters and I respect his words. Likewise, perhaps I can take the opinions of commentators of the time, who never put a glove on, with a grain of salt. But the consensus of the fighters of the time is that Jack Dempsey was truly great. I respect those words, too.

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iron-chinned Willard had fought once in four years, had no semblance of footwork or defense, yet still absorbed a frightful amount of punches from Dempsey. Firpo, a classic Rickard hype-job with that "Wild Bull of the Pampas" was unskilled, relatively untested lug with no science. The fact that Dempsey allowed himself to go life and death with this guy is no kind of endorsement. Again, Dempsey had power and that, along with some press row help back into the ring, saved his title.
In any other ring, the Willard destruction reads: TKO 1. I am sure you know enough about boxing to realize a little man, outweighed by 70 pounds (Heller), doing that to the tough, 250-pound top-dog is a beating for the ages, the stuff of...legend. A similar feat today would be whooped to the rafters and place that little man on the path to mega-celebrity and, yes, legend down the historical line. And the friendly reporters did not hold Firpo's hands behind the back for Dempsey to tee off. Dempsey, though hurt in the fall, didn't miss a beat, got back in and took his revenge as a champion does. That takes discipline. Dempsey did not go life and death with Firpo. He still had much left in the tank, but his huge foe only had enough for a round and-a-half.

Dempsey's status among the greats can be rightfully debated. I am only wary of those who, erroneously, see him as a thin, wild, overrated fabrication. In my view, that should be erradicated from a forum such as this.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:45 PM   #144
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

I don't think there is any debating the fact that he was a savage, fast and powerful fighter. His career could have been so much more though.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:51 PM   #145
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

The writers up until 1950 who saw him as one of the greatest HW fighters ever are not really disagreeing with what I say here are they?

If I'm to rank on that basis I probably put Dempsey number 3

Louis
Johnson
Langford
Dempsey
Wills


Might be how i rank those guys.


However since those days there have been heavyweights who surpassed him. Rocky, Frazier, Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Tyson, Holyfield, Wladimir, Lewis. Maybe Bowe and Liston.

I ain't going against those great boxing writers, it's just that i have the benefit of another 60 years of boxing history.

Last edited by lufcrazy; 01-20-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:51 PM   #146
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Gibbons also beat Greb. Smith? I don't see a big difference there Dempsey was 2-0 as well and knocked out a 'better' version of Smith. Dempsey blew out Levinsky in 3 rounds. Is that less impressive than all those decision victories.
Levinsky - I prefer 6-0 over a knockout victory. More decisive.

2-0 versus 2-0 over Smith. Call it even.

Like I said, Greb beat a fresher version of Gibbons, more times.

We could call Brennan even if you like.

And Miske, even.

Past prime Dempsey, 0-2 versus Tunney... Prime to late stage career Greb about even with Tunney, or Tunney perhaps holding some superiority.

Meehan? Advantage Greb, again.

Surely we can say Greb and Dempsey were at the very least even between common opponents? Or more likely, Greb as superior.

Not good for a supposed Klitschko killer (which, by the way, I think is totally unfair on Dempsey and ridiculous - he was clearly one of the best 185lbers ever).
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:53 PM   #147
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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12 years of "championship level fighting? OK? AGAIN lets see??

2 dodgy fights versus Liston with unsatisfactory ending which left more questions than they answered?

Tippy tapping his way against a past it Floyd who spent most of the fight struggling with a bad back before the ref and the crowd got sick of it?

Being given a body beating by Chuvalo who had lost to Joe Erskine (!!??) - yeah really great fighter there!!? Joe Erskine?? Not to mention Pete Rademacher and veteran leftovers from the 50's Bob Baker and Howard King - shows the championship level must've dropped a little since the 50's there

Henry Cooper who actually dominated the fight (AGAIN) until - what everyone knew would happen - happened and Cooper was stifled by a horrendous cut - yeah Ali really proved himself in that one didn't he

Then embarrassed the title against Brian London - London shouldn't have even been allowed in the same town as a title fight - he wasn't even the top heavy in his own country?

Karl Mildenberger? Fairly average really again took Ali 12 to get him out of there though?? Dick Richardson had stopped him in one before!!!?? haha

Then blitzed a SHOT Cleve - yeah looked amazing - but this was no contest from the start - at no point did this turn into a real fight - not exactly "championship level" stuff IMO

Then pot shotted at a tall thing punching bag (and occassionally fouled him when he was getting frustrated) - again no real "championship level" challenge there

Then Folley who really was a tired old man at that point - even in his better days he managed to get beat by Henry Cooper a good plucky Brit but in reality no threat at "championship level"?

Then when returning HE LOST THE FIRST "CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL FIGHT HE HAD" against Smokin Joe

Then there was your fat Buster Mathis' and your Jurgen Blins' - yeah "championship level" stuff there again I see

Mixed in were a past it Floyd who was still able to give Ali some moments but again got out of jail on a cut

Then skinny Bob who always ended up losing against the top heavies - very predictable

The superlative Joe Bugner - who really lost to a completely knackered Henry Cooper

THEN ALI LOST AGAIN - TO NORTON - who was practically unknown and was picked as an easy opponent at the time - he been KO'd by Jose Luis Garcia 3 years previous

After rematching him he had another softner against Rudi Lubbers!!! Who went the distance!!??

Then he had a wierd fight with Frazier where the ref kept stopping the action and rounds kept ending early - what??

Then Foreman

Then post Foreman - you had names like Wepner, Bugner, Pierre-Coopman, Dunn, Evangelista, etc - no where near "championship level" stuff

and amongst those gift decisions that he really LOST to Young, Norton and Shavers - and then he topped it off by getting beat by a 7 FIGHT NOVICE in Leon Spinks

YEAH AT LEAST HE HAD 12 YEARS OF CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL TO PROVE HIS SALT
well played good sir....well played indeed
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:55 PM   #148
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Not really Janitor. There probably were people, but you're going to have to steer me towards something specific at this point because i'm looking into this fight and every single report without exception is indicating Greb wins 1,2,5 and 6. Maybe you are talking about a different fight, but the fight after which Levinsky was written up as NOT now getting the Dempsey fight and after which Greb challenged Dempsey was the August 1918 fight over six rounds.


Three moths later Dempsey ko's Levinsky. Greb spends the best part of eight years trying to get him into the ring without success.
The Philadelphia Record gave the fight to Levinsky. Now I lean to the idea that Greb probably did win it, but there was clearly some debate on the point.

That for me puts things in a somewhat different context, and Dempsey's rapid destruction of Levinsky is clearly going to be seen as a much more decisive win over the same fighter.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:20 PM   #149
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Bravo Prime, as you stated, Dempsey's place is cemented in history by
all of his generation up to Ray Arcel. His likes we will never see again..
Thank you, sir. Always a thrill to see praise from the likes of you and a joy to read your insight.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:21 PM   #150
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Yeah according to the Boxrec entry, right? I'm dubious. I think Boxrec is ok and i do weigh those "this paper did this, this paper did that" type line but still.

What I would say is that their are two or three cards for Bradley in the Pacquiao fight. But at least I can read the reasoning behind these cards.
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