Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

 
  


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-21-2013, 08:38 AM   #196
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,213
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

It must have been absolutely mad being Dempsey in those days, the pressure to crush whatever guy the wheel out in just a round. Bet the atmosphere was electric.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 09:24 AM   #197
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,255
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
There was absolutely nothing controversial about it. In fact, in looking for some controversy connected with it all you have been able to produce is a one-line second hand source that indicates that fewer people than thought Bradley beat Pacquiao thought Levinsky beat Greb.
With respect, it is Philadelphia paper, that would likley have had a correspondent on the scene. This means that the ringside reported could not agree, therefore, the decision is controvertial.

Quote:
Is it possible it was controversial? Yeah. But there is very, very little evidence to support that supposition. You have to wonder why, objectively, anyone would stress this second hand source ahead of primaries, or stress this second hand source in the face of numerically superior alternative secondary sources.
I think that Greb probably won but if some people though otherwise, then it is debatable whether Dempsey is taking Grebs leftovers, or finishing his unfinished business.

Quote:
Levinsky weighed 179 based upon what i have, but pre-fight the talk was of him making 165lbs. Hard to say definitively but does it really matter all that much? It was the second time Greb had beaten Levinsky, who, really, could insist that Greb was not a superior pugilist after that?
Would you assume that Chad Dawson was a better win at heavyweight than Thomas Admek?

Just saying that we have to look at the context.

Quote:
But is that not exactly what you have done?
No, I have also tried to understand contemporary perceptions of these fights.

When Willard first became champion, himself, Fred fulton and Frank Moran were perceived to be the top heavyweights. All of the black dynamite crew were seen to be washed up. As his reign progressed Morris, Dillon and Levinsky started to be touted, although Fulton continued to be the top name.

It was into this scene that the young Jack Dempsey emerged as a title challenger.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 09:25 AM   #198
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post

As far as complete records, I think it is a stretch to assume what is missing would be leagues more flattering than what is available. We go with what we know.
Yeah, but you can't pass off the 'stats' as meaningful facts if you concede they are incomplete.
Someone who 'lost 4 of his last 5 fights' might have actually won another 4 fights since his last loss on that record, for all we know. Or he might have lost another 4, for example.
So he might be 5-4 in his last 9 .. or he might be 1-8 in his last nine, or even more extreme differences.

A fighter who is 0-1 on boxrec might have been 3-3 or 22-3, or 0-14, or 16-16-5 with 12 NDs ....

Once we accept that records are incomplete, or may well be, and that thousands of fights went unreported or undiscovered from that period, it renders your whole statistical argument meaningless.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-21-2013, 09:26 AM   #199
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
It must have been absolutely mad being Dempsey in those days, the pressure to crush whatever guy the wheel out in just a round. Bet the atmosphere was electric.
Yeah, a bit like Tyson.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 09:43 AM   #200
Ted Spoon
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Much of the credit Dempsey receives for his pre-title blitz rests on the fact he wrecked many tough fighters.

His first bout of 1918 was against Homer Smith who, if nothing else, was gritty. Dempsey did him in one round, 75 seconds to be exact. This may not seem like much today, but it was performances like this that began to forge his reputation as a destroyer.

Bill Brennan had yet to be floored when he met Jack. Tom Cowler, Jack Dillon; to be sure Bill had faced some stiff punchers, but that didn't stop him getting bounced off the canvas six times.

The rugged Battling Levinsky had been floored a good few times, though never stopped. In three rounds Dempsey had him on his back.

First round knockouts over Dan 'Porky' Flynn, Jim Flynn, Carl Morris and Arthur Pelkey aren't particularly impressive on their own, but as a collection they show how effective Dempsey was at chopping men down.

The Fulton win is just starting to get its due.

For a years work it was tremendous and should be remembered as one of the best displays of concussive efficiency in the annuls of heavyweight history.
Ted Spoon is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 09:49 AM   #201
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Burt - what do you say to the fact Harry Greb bettered Dempsey's results?

Against Miske, Brennan, Tunney, Gibbons, Meehan, G. Smith and Levinsky, Greb was more successful than Dempsey.

Greb is likely the greatest boxer of all time, but surely a contemporary of such standing as Dempsey, a fighter who was also much bigger, should have at least replicated Greb's results?

Yes, Dempsey was past his prime against Tunney, but in two tries he couldn't win. Greb fought better versions of Dempsey's other opponents, including Gibbons, lost to them less times and beat them more times.

I thought that a fighter said to defeat the likes of modern 220lbs+ heavyweights would have fared a bit better against Greb's whipping boys.

Can you explain this?
Greb was great.

Dempsey KO'd Brennan twice, and KO'd Miske once. He KO'd Levinsky.
Greb didn't.

I don't see any reason to say Greb beat better versions of Brennan or Miske, or even necessarily Gibbons.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:06 AM   #202
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Okay then. I feel my life clock ticking so, since I've said my bit, I'll leave it now.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:23 AM   #203
burt bienstock
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,817
vCash: 500
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

No fighter in history and certainly on ESB has been as scrutinized and analyzed as
Jack Dempsey. The millions of people of his harsher times were not stupid nor naive
when they were enthralled by the young Dempsey who hit his stride when he met Jack Kearns in 1917...Dempsey captured the imagination of those long ago days because he was a wrecking machine of a fighter whose take no prisoner style so impressed the fans that he became the greatest drawing card of his times and after, for a very simple reason. He was THAT GOOD. Or all those millions of Americans of his day were on
Kool-Aid as a Sam Langford, Damon Runyon, Mickey Walker,Gene Tunney,Max Schmeling
were a few who raved about his prowess...No fighter before or after would have a picnic in the ring with the peak Manassa Mauler ...
burt bienstock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:25 AM   #204
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,255
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

I think that there is a tendency with any great fighter of the past to take what they did acomplish for granted, and obsess about what they did not acomplish.

To realy put them into perspective you have to try to imagine them doing the same thing in todays division.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:36 AM   #205
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,306
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Greb was great.

Dempsey KO'd Brennan twice, and KO'd Miske once. He KO'd Levinsky.
Greb didn't.

I don't see any reason to say Greb beat better versions of Brennan or Miske, or even necessarily Gibbons.
Miske had no business being in the ring when Dempsey KO'd him. He was deathly ill at that point. Refer to Moyle's book on that account.

The Gibbons that Greb took in '20 was probably better than the one Dempsey took in '23 just by virtue that the latter was so close to the end. Still a good fighter either way, tho Greb did beat him 3 times if memory serves.

Greb was never a great KO puncher and fighting so often adjusted his style to less power and more volume to save his fists. No one is going to argue that Dempsey wasn't a great puncher, least not me. But it's nice to have the luxury of planting your face in starlet muff and waiting every couple years to see who is lined up to fight you. Greb was constantly on the road trying to raise his status.
Seamus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:44 AM   #206
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,306
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Compare it to other heavyweight legends, if you are in much doubt.

You are absolutely right to identify the factor of good matchmaking and barnstorming in helping create Dempsey's reputation. But guess what ? Most, almost all, the great fighters, especially at heavyweight, were moved the same way. They were all to some degree the product of clever matchmaking, good management.
Yes, to some degree.

I will take the runs to the title of the two heavyweight greats who bookended Dempsey, tho... Johnson and Louis. Far superior runs to the title and for Louis, a far, far superior wearing of the crown.
Seamus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:51 AM   #207
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,213
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor

With respect, it is Philadelphia paper, that would likley have had a correspondent on the scene. This means that the ringside reported could not agree, therefore, the decision is controvertial.
If you have six ringside correspondents and one of those ringside correspondents think A and the other five think B, I don't agree with you that this makes the result controversial. 4-2, yes. 3-3, of course. 5-1, the guy could just be an ass or an idiot.

More than that, we don't HAVE the report. So you are claiming this is controversial based upon the interpretation of a third party of a primary source then reproduced 100 years later on Boxrec. I don't have to explain how questionable this might be.

It's important to see the report before we lend it the weight you seem to be lending it (drawing a direct conclusion - that the fight was controversial). In, I think, Miske-Greb won, Miske won clearly fewer rounds than Greb and so lost the fight under the rules of the day.

But some newspapers did not consistently score under the rules of the day. In Miske-Greb I (i think), Miske hurt Greb badly in the last round, having opened up an old sparring scar in the ninth. At least one newspaper scored the fight for Miske because Greb ended the fight the more hurt of the two. In other words, they saw the fight a certain way but contrary to the way the fight would have been scored had judging been allowed. The article offered aan opinion on how fights should be scored as much as it offered a score - and that score was contrary to the rules of the day.

Acceptable? Probably to some, but talk about context.

Quote:
I think that Greb probably
That's actually rather extreme based upon ONE contrary opinion that may or may not be a contrary opinion and may or may not be valid.

Quote:
but if some people though otherwise
Not some; one, possibly.

Quote:
Would you assume that Chad Dawson was a better win at heavyweight than Thomas Admek?
No, but if there was a difference in weight of just a handful of pounds between those two rather than thirty-five pounds in question in this example, I would treat the two situations completely differently. That's a pretty horrible comparison actually.

Quote:
No, I have also tried to understand contemporary perceptions of these fights.
Whilst drawing into question a result reported by boxrec as a win for Greb - based upon a single line that you read on boxrec. That seems like an awful lot more faith in boxrec than Luff was demonstrating.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:56 AM   #208
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,213
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Greb was great.

Dempsey KO'd Brennan twice, and KO'd Miske once. He KO'd Levinsky.
Greb didn't.

I don't see any reason to say Greb beat better versions of Brennan or Miske, or even necessarily Gibbons.
And you can certainly objectively rate what he did, cold, and be impressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
No fighter in history and certainly on ESB has been as scrutinized and analyzed as
Jack Dempsey.
I think no fighter has so failed at that scrutiny. But it's more a question of the gap between those that boost him and those that think him overated, I think.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:56 AM   #209
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,745
vCash: 330
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

I think the one thing that is harshly criticised and something I'm also guilty of, is his domination of Willard. He was seen as a dominant champ at the time who was too big for his challengers. I don't think it's wrong to say he was seen as head and shoulders above his peers. I'm not saying he was a wlad klitschko, I'm saying he was perceived to be the best out there.

Was Dempsey still considered a dominant champ during his Hollywood years? I'm not sure and I'd have to look into that.

I think the praise Dempsey received during his prime was justified. I think it's shambolic that he never faced Wills nor Greb but i do think the things they said are true, it's just that people have since overtook him.
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 10:56 AM   #210
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Miske had no business being in the ring when Dempsey KO'd him. He was deathly ill at that point. Refer to Moyle's book on that account.

The Gibbons that Greb took in '20 was probably better than the one Dempsey took in '23 just by virtue that the latter was so close to the end. Still a good fighter either way, tho Greb did beat him 3 times if memory serves.

Greb was never a great KO puncher and fighting so often adjusted his style to less power and more volume to save his fists. No one is going to argue that Dempsey wasn't a great puncher, least not me.
Yes, Dempsey was a KO fighter, and Greb wasn't.
Dempsey KO'd some fighters who Greb couldn't.
It's actually debatable as to whether Greb beat better versions of better fighters.
Dempsey was the only fighter to KO Miske, as far as I know. Maybe he got lucky, I don't know. I've heard Miske was "deathly ill" when he KO'd a washed-up Brennan in 1 round, but I don't know.

Dempsey could have fought Brennan 6 times and scored 6 KOs for all we know. Somehow I doubt Dempsey, Greb or Brennan would come out looking much better if he had done such a feat, and I doubt Dempsey would be getting much praise for doing so.

Quote:
But it's nice to have the luxury of planting your face in starlet muff and waiting every couple years to see who is lined up to fight you. Greb was constantly on the road trying to raise his status.
There's a lesson there I'm sure.

I prefer the Dempsey business model.
But yeah Greb has a better seat in Valhalla, and arrived there 50 years sooner.
Take your pick.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013