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Old 01-21-2013, 11:06 AM   #211
Unforgiven
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
And you can certainly objectively rate what he did, cold, and be impressed.
Both of them. Yeah, I'm impressed.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:15 AM   #212
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Yes, to some degree.

I will take the runs to the title of the two heavyweight greats who bookended Dempsey, tho... Johnson and Louis. Far superior runs to the title and for Louis, a far, far superior wearing of the crown.

Johnson's was a slow climb, it's hard to compare.
Dempsey's was an 18-month campaign, a barnstorming KO tour and some KOs of some contenders.

While it should be noted that Dempsey dropped a decision to Willie Meehan in a 4-rounder in 1918, and didn't face Harry Wills, who was probably the other leading contender, it has to be said that Joe Louis's run at the title was rudely interrupted by Max Schmeling and Louis's managers then did their bit to de-rail Schmeling's rightful first shot at the title.
Not saying Louis's record wasn't uber-impressive going in to the Braddock fight, but it's a clear example of the machinations of shrewd management being the deciding factor.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:38 PM   #213
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

[quote]
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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
If you have six ringside correspondents and one of those ringside correspondents think A and the other five think B, I don't agree with you that this makes the result controversial. 4-2, yes. 3-3, of course. 5-1, the guy could just be an ass or an idiot.
Of course this guy could have been an ass or an idiot, but are you realy justified in dismissing this report out of hand?

Of course we have to go with what the majority of riungsiders thought, but I think we need to study this fight in more detail before judging it as a straight up case of Dempsey fighting Greb's leftovers.

Quote:
More than that, we don't HAVE the report. So you are claiming this is controversial based upon the interpretation of a third party of a primary source then reproduced 100 years later on Boxrec. I don't have to explain how questionable this might be.
Much as I abhor people who place blind faith in boxrec, I would be prepared to assume that the report in question exists, and says what they say it does.

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That's actually rather extreme based upon ONE contrary opinion that may or may not be a contrary opinion and may or may not be valid.
Its like this.

We can either say that Greb probably won or that he definitely won.

If you cannot say definitely, then probably is the strongest form of wording that you can use.

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Not some; one, possibly.
One definitely, perhaps more if we look into it further.

Who knows?

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No, but if there was a difference in weight of just a handful of pounds between those two rather than thirty-five pounds in question in this example, I would treat the two situations completely differently. That's a pretty horrible comparison actually.
I think that we should be taking note of whether fights took place in a lower weight class, when assesing their implications for Greb's standing as a heavyweight contender.

Realisticaly, people would not have overlooked it at the time.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:46 PM   #214
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Hardly analytic or critical. Aside from nostalgic claptrap, I see little to rate Dempsey as more than a barnstormer with a punch. Heavyweight boxing was born with Joe Louis.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:59 PM   #215
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Of course this guy could have been an ass or an idiot, but are you realy justified in dismissing this report out of hand?
But I haven't done that. That would indeed be unresonable. It's the equivalent of seeing that single line and deducing that the fight was controversial in the absence of any other evidence. I mean you literally can't even say you've seen a report that has the fight to Levinsky!

Quote:
Of course we have to go with what the majority of riungsiders thought, but I think we need to study this fight in more detail before judging it as a straight up case of Dempsey fighting Greb's leftovers.
Why? Greb almost certainly beat the guy twice before Dempsey fought him. That's as close to a definition of fighting leftovers as i have ever seen. You want him to beat him three times to qualify? Or four?


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If you cannot say definitely, then probably is the strongest form of wording that you can use.
You can say he won it in the opinion of the huge majority of ringsiders, as far as we are aware. This is the exact definition of every valid points victory in history.


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Realisticaly, people would not have overlooked it at the time.
People overlooked it all the time at the time.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:58 PM   #216
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Lots of fighters had beat Levinsky before Dempsey did.
(I'm not sure Clay Turner didn't beat him in the fight previous. Reports differ)
But no one had knocked Levinsky out before, according to Levinsky and the available record.
Hardly anyone KO'd him after either, despite him fighting until he was all washed-up and almost 40 years old.

In that respect, it's a good result for Dempsey.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:01 PM   #217
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Lots of fighters had beat Levinsky before Dempsey did.
(I'm not sure Clay Turner didn't beat him in the fight previous. Reports differ)
But no one had knocked Levinsky out before, according to Levinsky and the available record.
Hardly anyone KO'd him after either, despite him fighting until he was all washed-up and almost 40 years old.

In that respect, it's a good result for Dempsey.
a good result yes but considering it's one of the best wins for what some say is one of the best fighters ever, it's not that impressive
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:04 PM   #218
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Lots of fighters had beat Levinsky before Dempsey did.
(I'm not sure Clay Turner didn't beat him in the fight previous. Reports differ)
But no one had knocked Levinsky out before, according to Levinsky and the available record.
Hardly anyone KO'd him after either, despite him fighting until he was all washed-up and almost 40 years old.

In that respect, it's a good result for Dempsey.
Similar to Louis versus King Levinsky.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:06 PM   #219
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

i'm a massive fan of wlad's. and if someone asked me to rate his resume, i'd say it's lacking. he is in a sub par era but fights the best he has. no all time greats though on his ledger
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:06 PM   #220
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Yeah despite Greb being a clear better choice, the levinsky victory is still great.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:12 PM   #221
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Lots of fighters had beat Levinsky before Dempsey did.
(I'm not sure Clay Turner didn't beat him in the fight previous. Reports differ)
But no one had knocked Levinsky out before, according to Levinsky and the available record.
Hardly anyone KO'd him after either, despite him fighting until he was all washed-up and almost 40 years old.

In that respect, it's a good result for Dempsey.
Dempsey could punch like mule kicks. And he often sold out his entire game to land big punches. I ain't going to deny that.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:18 PM   #222
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Yeah despite Greb being a clear better choice, the levinsky victory is still great.
Good, not great.

People got excited when Sam Peter knocked Jeremy Williams cold as a cucumber. No one had done that before. A similar head-turning victory but not a great one.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:45 PM   #223
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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But I haven't done that. That would indeed be unresonable. It's the equivalent of seeing that single line and deducing that the fight was controversial in the absence of any other evidence. I mean you literally can't even say you've seen a report that has the fight to Levinsky!

Why? Greb almost certainly beat the guy twice before Dempsey fought him. That's as close to a definition of fighting leftovers as i have ever seen. You want him to beat him three times to qualify? Or four?

You can say he won it in the opinion of the huge majority of ringsiders, as far as we are aware. This is the exact definition of every valid points victory in history.

People overlooked it all the time at the time.
Down to brass tacks then.

How many local papers are you aware of having scored the fight for Greb?
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:46 PM   #224
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Good, not great.

People got excited when Sam Peter knocked Jeremy Williams cold as a cucumber. No one had done that before. A similar head-turning victory but not a great one.
The crucial difference is that Levinsky was actualy regarded as being one of the better contenders of the period, while Williams wasn't.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:10 PM   #225
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Down to brass tacks then.

How many local papers are you aware of having scored the fight for Greb?
Yeah, or to get down to brass tacks, why is fighting a guy another guy is beaten twice not leftovers and why is a one line second hand summary indicative of a controversial fight? But to answer your quesiton, one.

Plus the wire, plus the four or five indicating Dempsey won on Boxrec plus two others (unless they are covered by the Boxrec detailing, I can't remember of hand). So that makes a ratio of something like 7-1 (or 5-1), overwhelmingly in favour of Greb. Unless, of course, you are excluding The New York Times Report, the Pittsburgh Post report and all the others that aren't printed within a few miles of where the fight took place for some reason.


Thomas Hauser HBO 115-114 Bradley/Pacquiao
Bart Barry HBO 116-115 Bradley/Pacquiao

Controversial? Not because of the cards against, that's for sure.
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