duran v leonard greatness comparison.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Duran lost to greats in their division when he bulked up.

But drain Benitez, hearns and Hagler down to lightweight and we'd see Duran bust them up as much as they did he.

well then where are the greats Duran fought and beat on his resume at lightweight? That is what is lacking when comparing him to Leonard or any great who beat greats. Even Manny Pacman, who fought several greats and beat them. Duran is a great fighter. fighting all those years and division and fighting the likes of Dejesus,Hearns,Leonard,Benitez,Hagler,Barkley,Cuevas etc. No doubt. But his lack of wins against great fighters is what makes his resume a top 25 and not a top 10. A great fighter needs wins against fellow greats to get to that top level. More than just one where he won when a guy fought his fight and then comes back and wins easily. If people want to rate him as the greatest ever or close to it without great wins against great fighters, that is fine, but then the whole ranking system for great fighters will be inaccurate and called into question, and seemingly based on fan favorites and charisma and not actual accomplishments against greats in great circumstances. Ray proved when the pressure was on against different styles that he could outbox, outpunch ,outthink any fighter and style. Duran did not. Not to be rated over Ray or to be rated top 10. Top 25 yes. He is a great fighter, my points are that not Duran is not top 10 or over Ray because he lacks dominant wins against elites, regardless of excuses that he was small or didn't train. Eliminate the excuses and everything else. What win does Duran have which ranks over Ray's to wins?

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

well then where are the greats Duran fought and beat on his resume at lightweight? That is what is lacking when comparing him to Leonard or any great who beat greats. Even Manny Pacman, who fought several greats and beat them. Duran is a great fighter. fighting all those years and division and fighting the likes of Dejesus,Hearns,Leonard,Benitez,Hagler,Barkley,Cuevas etc. No doubt. But his lack of wins against great fighters is what makes his resume a top 25 and not a top 10. A great fighter needs wins against fellow greats to get to that top level. More than just one where he won when a guy fought his fight and then comes back and wins easily. If people want to rate him as the greatest ever or close to it without great wins against great fighters, that is fine, but then the whole ranking system for great fighters will be inaccurate and called into question, and seemingly based on fan favorites and charisma and not actual accomplishments against greats in great circumstances. Ray proved when the pressure was on against different styles that he could outbox, outpunch ,outthink any fighter and style. Duran did not. Not to be rated over Ray or to be rated top 10. Top 25 yes. He is a great fighter, my points are that not top because he lack dominant wins against elites, regardless of excuses that he was small or didn't train and all this.

He beat Sugar Ray Leonard, a "fellow great." Probably the most meaningful victory of the Fabulous 4, too. Sometimes lauded as the greatest single victory in the history of boxing.

What about his win over Buchanan? A top 10 British fighter all-time by many accounts, and Duran battered him.

[Unforgiven]

Duran is clearly greater.
He dominated lightweight, earned his shot at the champion, beat him quite convincingly, reigned for 7 years, making I think 12 consecutive defenses.
Then he moved up to welterweight, and earned his shot at the champion by beating ranked welters, and beat the champion Leonard quite convincingly I thought.

Leonard did less at welterweight than Duran did at lightweight, beat a good champ, lost the title to Duran in his 2nd defense and regained it, he did beat some great fighters but retired instead of establishing a comparable reign, and when he moved up to challenge Hagler he didn't earn that shot at all and didn't really win very convincingly at all, imo.

Post-1980, Duran did more than Leonard did post-1987.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by orriray59

He beat Sugar Ray Leonard, a "fellow great." Probably the most meaningful victory of the Fabulous 4, too. Sometimes lauded as the greatest single victory in the history of boxing.

What about his win over Buchanan? A top 10 British fighter all-time by many accounts, and Duran battered him.

Buchanan is not an ATG fighter. A very good HOF fighter and a nice guy. I met him once. There is no way a win over a green Leonard in June of 1980 when Ray fought his fight is the best win of the fab 4. Ray at the time was on the second defense of his first title reign. Just the fact he fought Duran's fight because of a comment Duran made to Ray shows Ray's immaturity. Ray was not yet in this prime when Duran bet him in June of 1980, and Duran did not dominate him and Ray actually fought Duran's fight. Ray later learned the whole game and how to fight his fight and style and to get considerations in fights for psychological advantage.

Best win of the fab 4? Honestly? It could be Hagler over Hearns just by how Marvin put his all mentally and physically and denied losing or being hurt. Best knockout is Hearns over Duran. Biggest upset is Leonard over Hagler. Actuallyt the Duran/Leonard fights turned out to be the most onesided fights of the fab 4 matchups.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Duran is clearly greater.
He dominated lightweight, earned his shot at the champion, beat him quite convincingly, reigned for 7 years, making I think 12 consecutive defenses.
Then he moved up to welterweight, and earned his shot at the champion by beating ranked welters, and beat the champion Leonard quite convincingly I thought.

Leonard did less at welterweight than Duran did at lightweight, beat a good champ, lost the title to Duran in his 2nd defense and regained it, he did beat some great fighters but retired instead of establishing a comparable reign, and when he moved up to challenge Hagler he didn't earn that shot at all and didn't really win very convincingly at all, imo.

Post-1980, Duran did more than Leonard did post-1987.

The only thing I can say about title defenses is who were they against. Duran did not fight elites in that reign. I wish he would have found a way to fight Arguello or Pryor or Cervantes at 140 to see how he would have done. I think Arguello is a much tougher fight than expected for Roberto. As for title defenses, Virgil Hill has 25 or so, so by that we can say he is greater than Hearns even if Hearns easily outboxed him.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

Buchanan is not an ATG fighter. A very good HOF fighter and a nice guy. I met him once. There is no way a win over a green Leonard in June of 1980 when Ray fought his fight is the best win of the fab 4. Ray at the time was on the second defense of his first title reign. Just the fact he fought Duran's fight because of a comment Duran made to Ray shows Ray's immaturity. Ray was not yet in this prime when Duran bet him in June of 1980, and Duran did not dominate him and Ray actually fought Duran's fight. Ray later learned the whole game and how to fight his fight and style and to get considerations in fights for psychological advantage.

Best win of the fab 4? Honestly? It could be Hagler over Hearns just by how Marvin put his all mentally and physically and denied losing or being hurt. Best knockout is Hearns over Duran. Biggest upset is Leonard over Hagler. Actuallyt the Duran/Leonard fights turned out to be the most onesided fights of the fab 4 matchups.

Hold up, Leonard was green? He had 27 fights at the time, beating men like Price, Ranzany, Benitez, Green, Viruet, Gant, etc. All established contenders that he comfortably beat, and an unbeaten ATG in Wilfred Benitez.

He had proved himself against a certified all-time great boxer and plenty of the era's contenders, stopping the majority of them. You trying to say SRL was inexperienced when he fought Duran? He really, really wasn't.

And yeah, the best win of the Fabulous 4. A guy whose prime was at lightweight moving up to defeat one of the most skilled and talented welterweights of all time in his prime. It doesn't get better than that. Hearns was moving up to face Hagler when Marv blitzed him.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

The only thing I can say about title defenses is who were they against. Duran did not fight elites in that reign. I wish he would have found a way to fight Arguello or Pryor or Cervantes at 140 to see how he would have done. I think Arguello is a much tougher fight than expected for Roberto. As for title defenses, Virgil Hill has 25 or so, so by that we can say he is greater than Hearns even if Hearns easily outboxed him.

Buchanan and DeJesus were elite lightweights.

[Hands of Iron]

The 'ranked' fighters fought during their LW and WW runs respectively

DURAN

1972: Ken Buchanan (World LW Champ)
1972: Esteban DeJesus (No. 1 LW) (@140) - LOSS
1973: Hector Thompson (No. 6 LWW) (@135)
1974: Esteban DeJesus (No. 1 LW)
1975: Ray Lampkin (No. 1 LW)
1976: Saoul Mamby (No. 10 JWW)
1976: Lou Bizzarro (No. 5 LWW) (@135)
1977: Vilomar Fernandez (No. 4 LW)
1977: Edwin Viruet (No. 2 LW)
1978: Esteban DeJesus (No. 1 LW)

LEONARD

1978: Floyd Mayweather Sr. (No. 6 WW)
1978: Randy Shields (No. 4 WW)
1979: Johnny Gant (No. 4 WW)
1979: Adolfo Viruet (No. 8 JWW) (@147)
1979: Tony Chiaverini (No. 4 LMW) (@154)
1979: Pete Ranzany (No. 5 WW)
1979: Andy Price (No. 8 WW)
1979: Wilfred Benitez (World WW Champion)
1980: Dave "Boy" Green (No. 7 WW)
1980: Roberto Duran (No. 2 WW) - LOSS
1980: Roberto Duran (World WW Champion)
1981: Ayub Kalule (World LMW Champion)
1981: Thomas Hearns (No. 1 WW; Titlist)
1982: Bruce Finch (No. 6 WW)
-- Fight scheduled for May 1982 with No. 2 WW Roger Stafford. Retirement.


The gulf people contnue referring to is quite imaginative. Leonard's 'work rate' was scorching.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

The only thing I can say about title defenses is who were they against. Duran did not fight elites in that reign. I wish he would have found a way to fight Arguello or Pryor or Cervantes at 140 to see how he would have done. I think Arguello is a much tougher fight than expected for Roberto. As for title defenses, Virgil Hill has 25 or so, so by that we can say he is greater than Hearns even if Hearns easily outboxed him.

Duran made 12 defenses, and was champ for 7 years. Who did he avoid or fail to meet at 135 ? Were Arguello, Pryor and Cervantes top-ranked lightweights during his reign ?

I thought 'Prince' Charles Williams was better than Virgill Hill.

[duranimal]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

Buchanan is not an ATG fighter. A very good HOF fighter and a nice guy. I met him once. There is no way a win over a green Leonard in June of 1980 when Ray fought his fight is the best win of the fab 4. Ray at the time was on the second defense of his first title reign. Just the fact he fought Duran's fight because of a comment Duran made to Ray shows Ray's immaturity. Ray was not yet in this prime when Duran bet him in June of 1980, and Duran did not dominate him and Ray actually fought Duran's fight. Ray later learned the whole game and how to fight his fight and style and to get considerations in fights for psychological advantage..

Still excreating the same old GREEN SHYTE!

Go see a doctor! get that bunghole checked out! Could be something serious or it could be just a mental problem

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

Buchanan is not an ATG fighter. A very good HOF fighter and a nice guy. I met him once. There is no way a win over a green Leonard in June of 1980 when Ray fought his fight is the best win of the fab 4. Ray at the time was on the second defense of his first title reign. Just the fact he fought Duran's fight because of a comment Duran made to Ray shows Ray's immaturity. Ray was not yet in this prime when Duran bet him in June of 1980, and Duran did not dominate him and Ray actually fought Duran's fight. Ray later learned the whole game and how to fight his fight and style and to get considerations in fights for psychological advantage.

Best win of the fab 4? Honestly? It could be Hagler over Hearns just by how Marvin put his all mentally and physically and denied losing or being hurt. Best knockout is Hearns over Duran. Biggest upset is Leonard over Hagler. Actuallyt the Duran/Leonard fights turned out to be the most onesided fights of the fab 4 matchups.

Leonard was actually quite experienced. He'd ripped the entire division a new ass at a blistering pace. See above.

[Hands of Iron]

You guys put a shit ton of consideration into title reigns, either by arguing how much greater Duran was at LW for it or trying to twist reality into Leonard somehow being "Green" when he fought Duran . World level opposition is world level opposition.

[lufcrazy]

Duran over Leonard is the best result of the fab4.

[Hands of Iron]

Clehly.

[orriray59]

I'm still baffled how a man can be considered green after almost 30 fights and a win over an undefeated ATG.