duran v leonard greatness comparison.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

The 'ranked' fighters fought during their LW and WW runs respectively

DURAN

1972: Ken Buchanan (World LW Champ)
1972: Esteban DeJesus (No. 1 LW) (@140) - LOSS
1973: Hector Thompson (No. 6 LWW) (@135)
1974: Esteban DeJesus (No. 1 LW)
1975: Ray Lampkin (No. 1 LW)
1976: Saoul Mamby (No. 10 JWW)
1976: Lou Bizzarro (No. 5 LWW) (@135)
1977: Vilomar Fernandez (No. 4 LW)
1977: Edwin Viruet (No. 2 LW)
1978: Esteban DeJesus (No. 1 LW)

LEONARD



1978: Floyd Mayweather Sr. (No. 6 WW)
1978: Randy Shields (No. 4 WW)
1979: Johnny Gant (No. 4 WW)
1979: Adolfo Viruet (No. 8 JWW) (@147)
1979: Tony Chiaverini (No. 4 LMW) (@154)
1979: Pete Ranzany (No. 5 WW)
1979: Andy Price (No. 8 WW)
1979: Wilfred Benitez (World WW Champion)
1980: Dave "Boy" Green (No. 7 WW)
1980: Roberto Duran (No. 2 WW) - LOSS
1980: Roberto Duran (World WW Champion)
1981: Ayub Kalule (World LMW Champion)
1981: Thomas Hearns (No. 1 WW; Titlist)
1982: Bruce Finch (No. 6 WW)
-- Fight scheduled for May 1982 with No. 2 WW Roger Stafford. Retirement.


The gulf people contnue referring to is quite imaginative. Leonard's 'work rate' was scorching.

You sure that was all Duran had at LW? Much less than I expected.

[Hands of Iron]

GUTS should be mentioned.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by orriray59

I'm still baffled how a man can be considered green after almost 30 fights and a win over an undefeated ATG.

a guy can have 45 fights and be green. The fact he fought Duran's fight because of being upset with him shows he was still immature and not the professional he was later when he tried to get Hagler in a good mood so he wouldn't attack him in the early rounds, and then Hagler come out right handed. Ray got smarter. The fact Ray beat Duran so easily in the rematch and rubber match is significant. And Duran quit when Ray started to land hard punches to the head and body.

By the way, I do think the best win of the fab 4 was probably Hagler over Hearns. A great performance. Marvin knew that was going to be his legacy. He knew against Duran he did not put the pressure on and he didn't think Leonard would ever come back and fight him, so he had a feeling his legacy was the Hearns fight and it turned out it was. I would love to pick a Hearns win to say it was the best of the fab 4, but I think Marvin's win over Tommy stands out.

[lora]

You would have thought Emiliano Villa's tight loss against Benitez would have earned him some sort of ranking at 140.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

a guy can have 45 fights and be green. The fact he fought Duran's fight because of being upset with him shows he was still immature and not the professional he was later when he tried to get Hagler in a good mood so he wouldn't attack him in the early rounds, and then Hagler come out right handed. Ray got smarter. The fact Ray beat Duran so easily in the rematch and rubber match is significant. And Duran quit when Ray started to land hard punches to the head and body.

By the way, I do think the best win of the fab 4 was probably Hagler over Hearns. A great performance. Marvin knew that was going to be his legacy. He knew against Duran he did not put the pressure on and he didn't think Leonard would ever come back and fight him, so he had a feeling his legacy was the Hearns fight and it turned out it was. I would love to pick a Hearns win to say it was the best of the fab 4, but I think Marvin's win over Tommy stands out.

A guy with 45 fights and is still green has been fighting weak opposition. Leonard had most definitely not.

[lora]

Leonard was brought on superbly.His early career is the blueprint imo on how to bring on a fighter with good backing.

All styles, steadily up the difficulty-a few curveballs like Geraldo etc-then a world title shot after about 4 years.

Make no mistake about it, he was ready for Duran and already a great fighter.Might have improved another slight bit from stuff learned in defeat, but that's it.

Fools like Cosell and his ilk thoroughly exaggerated the "bah gawd he's fighting flat footed!!!" shite and the simpletons ran with it, not noticing he'd been fighting relatively similarly in good chunks of his fights up until then.

Planting his feet and being aggressive offensively was a big part of Leonard's game and going into the Duran fight as the bigger man he had every right to feel doing that very early in the fight was a good idea to take the play away from the smaller man.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by orriray59

A guy with 45 fights and is still green has been fighting weak opposition. Leonard had most definitely not.

He really sells Leonard short with that nonsense. Aside from Benitez, he hadn't taken out any world beaters (as if it didnt prove enough), but putting numerous contenders on his record as quickly as he did looks good on him and gives him stronger case for what he may be, the second greatest welterweight of all-time. He was thoroughly built for the division with the skills and ability to match like very few others.

Then again, he's most interested in discrediting Duran above all else.

[Rexrapper 1]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Was Duran a greater lightweight than Leonard was a welterweight?

Was Duran's victory over Leonard greater than Leonard's over Hagler?

Does Duran compare to Leonard resume wise across a whole career?

Does Duran compare to Leonard skillwise in a peak for peak comparison?

Does Duran's weight hopping compare to Leonard's

For casual fans it seems Leonard it the default choice for greater boxer. For hardcore fans it seems Duran is default choice for greater boxer.

I've seen lots of debate on the trilogy between these two but not as much debate on who should be greater and, more importantly, why.

Was Duran a greater lightweight than Leonard was a welterweight? No not to me. Duran, Benitez, and Hearns trump what Duran did at lightweight.

Was Duran's victory over Leonard greater than Leonard's over Hagler? Yes it was. Leonard was the favorite to win and Duran climbing up two weight classes and beating him trumps beating a old Hagler (Who I don't even think he beat).

Does Duran compare to Leonard resume wise across a whole career?
Yes he does. Duran may not have the better top wins but I think his overall resume is better than Leonard's.

Does Duran compare to Leonard skillwise in a peak for peak comparison? Hell yes. I don't think Duran is more skilled but he is up there. I rate Leonard higher than most when it comes to skill.

Does Duran's weight hopping compare to Leonard's? No, Duran's climbing up in weight was on a different level. To start from 118 pounds all the way up to light heavyweight is amazing. Leonard fucked up for me with Lalonde.

[Bill Butcher]

I think its quite ridiculous to suggest that either one of these guys were on another tier from each other, they are unquestionably on the same tier.

I rank Duran a little higher in greatness mainly due to his LW reign & his longevity but overall there is definitely not a tier between these guys, no chance.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Bill Butcher

I think its quite ridiculous to suggest that either one of these guys were on another tier from each other, they are unquestionably on the same tier.

I rank Duran a little higher in greatness mainly due to his LW reign & his longevity but overall there is definitely not a tier between these guys, no chance.

Totally agree.

[Bill Butcher]

Originally Posted by recycling

Duran is a brawler who quit. Is there anything else to be said

Yes, but not by you.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by Rexrapper 1

Was Duran a greater lightweight than Leonard was a welterweight? No not to me. Duran, Benitez, and Hearns trump what Duran did at lightweight.

Was Duran's victory over Leonard greater than Leonard's over Hagler? Yes it was. Leonard was the favorite to win and Duran climbing up two weight classes and beating him trumps beating a old Hagler (Who I don't even think he beat).

Does Duran compare to Leonard resume wise across a whole career?
Yes he does. Duran may not have the better top wins but I think his overall resume is better than Leonard's.

Does Duran compare to Leonard skillwise in a peak for peak comparison? Hell yes. I don't think Duran is more skilled but he is up there. I rate Leonard higher than most when it comes to skill.

Does Duran's weight hopping compare to Leonard's? No, Duran's climbing up in weight was on a different level. To start from 118 pounds all the way up to light heavyweight is amazing. Leonard fucked up for me with Lalonde.

to me Ray's welterweight reign is much greater than Duran's lightweight reign.

I think Ray's win over Hagler who was champion for 7 years and 11 or so title defenses is better than Duran's over Ray who was on the second defense of his first title

I say when a guy wins a title that is where his weight started. A guy starts in 1967 when he is 15 years old does not really mean that much as far as gaining weight and getting bigger. What hurts Duran's legacy for me is not enough wins against elites. It is a big flaw in his record. People say he is top 10 ever, but I cannot see that with his wins against elites. one win against an elite before Ray was really elite. And that statement bothers people, but the fact Ray lost was Ray as the variable not Duran.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by Bill Butcher

I think its quite ridiculous to suggest that either one of these guys were on another tier from each other, they are unquestionably on the same tier.

I rank Duran a little higher in greatness mainly due to his LW reign & his longevity but overall there is definitely not a tier between these guys, no chance.

same tired. Great fighters. Ray was more versatile and proved more in his wins, but Duran was a tougher individual mentally and had a long career. Same as JCC Sr.

[Bill Butcher]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

Buchanan is not an ATG fighter. A very good HOF fighter and a nice guy. I met him once. There is no way a win over a green Leonard in June of 1980 when Ray fought his fight is the best win of the fab 4. Ray at the time was on the second defense of his first title reign. Just the fact he fought Duran's fight because of a comment Duran made to Ray shows Ray's immaturity. Ray was not yet in this prime when Duran bet him in June of 1980, and Duran did not dominate him and Ray actually fought Duran's fight. Ray later learned the whole game and how to fight his fight and style and to get considerations in fights for psychological advantage.

Best win of the fab 4? Honestly? It could be Hagler over Hearns just by how Marvin put his all mentally and physically and denied losing or being hurt. Best knockout is Hearns over Duran. Biggest upset is Leonard over Hagler. Actuallyt the Duran/Leonard fights turned out to be the most onesided fights of the fab 4 matchups.

I only reached as far as the green highlighted part & realised it was pointless to read anymore, a green fighter doesn`t dominate & hand a master like Benitez his first loss, behave yourself, Leonard was as prime as it gets when Duran beat him (& I have no bias either way, both are amongst my all time top 10 favourite fighters)

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by Bill Butcher

I only reached as far as the green highlighted part & realised it was pointless to read anymore, a green fighter doesn`t dominate & hand a master like Benitez his first loss, behave yourself, Leonard was as prime as it gets when Duran beat him (& I have no bias either way, both are amongst my all time top 10 favourite fighters)

a more prime Ray would have beaten Benitez better without the beating he took. He couldn't go to the post fight celebration Ray was so sore. Hearns on the other hand had a tough fight with Benitez, but outboxed him in a way Ray didn't but could have a year or two later. Also Benitez fought great at 154. Ray fought Benitez on the inside.