Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

[BUDW]

Originally Posted by redrooster

Sorry to spoil the party but no. By the end of 1981 Sugar had the BEGINNINGS of a promising career but next to dozens of other greats, those feats dwindle into insignificance and are only impressive to fans belonging to HIS era

In order to do that he would have to had beaten a prime Hagler 1982-83ish and frankly, he wasnt good enough nor man enough to do that

another approach, an easier one would have been to ignore the middleweight division for a time until Hagler cleared out and settled for a fight with Pryor fresh off a bombastic bombing of Arguello and defnitely entering his prime. Leonard might have won but we'll never know

a nice follow up would be to then take on his heir Donald Curry who hit his prime in 85.

HAd he defeated both men, Sugar could be worthy of a top 20 spot becuz it would prove he's consistent in winning big fights. as it was, he only won 3/4 by 1981 which translates into 75%

something else that wouldve helped his rep would have been to take more chances as he got older and prove his mettle against younger stars with lots of speed such as Micheal Nunn & Terry Norris

Sugar wanted to fight at the time but only against tired, worn out names which confirm my original suspicions that he wasnt up to fighting prime Hagler but his eye wasnt the reason for it

Ditto

[Unforgiven]

No, I wouldn't have him in my top 20 pound-for-pound.

Off the top of my head, I'd have (in no particular order) Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, Benny Leonard, Sam Langford, Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Mickey Walker, Joe Gans, Jimmy McLarnin, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Roberto Duran, Terry McGovern, Charley Burley and Packey McFarland above him ... among others.

He might make a top 35

[prime]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

No, I wouldn't have him in my top 20 pound-for-pound.

Off the top of my head, I'd have (in no particular order) Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, Benny Leonard, Sam Langford, Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Mickey Walker, Joe Gans, Jimmy McLarnin, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Roberto Duran, Terry McGovern, Charley Burley and Packey McFarland above him ... among others.

He might make a top 35

If men such as McLarnin, Canzoneri, Ross, and McFarland can be considered, Ray Leonard is a secure contender for top-20 status.

To say he "might" make a top-35 sounds disconcerting, to say the least.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by prime

If men such as McLarnin, Canzoneri, Ross, and McFarland can be considered, Ray Leonard is a secure contender for top-20 status.

I'd rate them all ahead of him.
(though I admit maybe I need to do more research on McFarland).

To say he "might" make a top-35 sounds disconcerting, to say the least.

Top 35 all-time means he's really really really fucking great.

[Unforgiven]

To be fair to SRL, I don't think Duran (who he went 2-1 against) would make the top 20 either.
He'd be above SRL though, in the top 30.

[MagnaNasakki]

I think the last time I actually sat down and did a ranking, I put him at 23.

I can see an argument for top 20. He has some of the best wins anybody has had ever.

He's just in such amazing company.

I start to think we split hairs with ranking. I'm content with just saying he's one of the very best to ever do this, bar none.

[Addie]

I see Duran routinely ranked among the top 20 of all time, and I can understand why. Top tier longevity. Top tier ability. Wins against Sugar Ray Leonard, Esteban De Jesus, Ken Buchanan, Carlos Palomino, Davey Moore, and Iran Barkley. The last two wins I just listed can't be understated, notably the Barkley victory. It's fairly close to the Leonard win in terms of quality, in my opinion. The man has names on his resume in addition to an impressive title reign at Lightweight.

[Bill Butcher]

..

[Bill Butcher]

In response to the thread title.... Easily, on fighters beat & overall ability alone I think its criminal to have him outside a top 20 list.

[Addie]

Watch Rose-Harada, Bill.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

No, I wouldn't have him in my top 20 pound-for-pound.

Off the top of my head, I'd have (in no particular order) Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, Benny Leonard, Sam Langford, Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Mickey Walker, Joe Gans, Jimmy McLarnin, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Roberto Duran, Terry McGovern, Charley Burley and Packey McFarland above him ... among others.

He might make a top 35

Sugar Ray Leonard > Joe Louis

Hearns, Benitez, Hagler, Duran > Schmeling, Walcott, Conn, Baer

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by orriray59

Sugar Ray Leonard > Joe Louis

No

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

No

I was taking the piss, sort of.

I still think SRL has far superior single victories, though.

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Leonard, about #22 for me. But higher for ability. I feel he'd have carved a definite top ten all-time career for himself if he'd been around earlier and ended up with a record of 89-9-2 and more names and numbers of names to his name.

This is interesting, if Leonard had fought a rematch with Hearns at 154, if he fought a younger Hagler, Mike Mccallum, Donald Curry, Michael Nunn could Leonard have won these fights? If he lost to one or more of these guys how would it affect his legacy?

For what it's worth, I'm a huge Leonard fanboy, just playing devil's advocate and asking questions

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by orriray59

I was taking the piss, sort of.

I still think SRL has far superior single victories, though.

He does.