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Old 08-26-2013, 09:41 AM   #61
tommythomas3
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

I won't rank him even in the top 100. Even Marquez, Antuofermo, even Mayweather (also a scared boxer) get more respect from me.
Leonard was a protected, and utterly sad cope of Muhammad Ali when Ali was fading. He got his wishes fulfilled by promoters and conmissions. Duran could live his own life, eh? Leonard had Duran out of ****in' shape in the No Mas fight. He bribed King and cried for a ref who had problems with rough in fighting, a big ring, 5 months later date, etc. Duran was set up and Duran knew it. He should have kept his cool and continued to fight, but I understand Duran. As far as I'm concerned about the American media (no racist), Duran did more good things. But one mistake and they will talk about it forever! Hearns struggled to make the weight. What Leonard did to Roberto he did the exact same thing against Marvelous Marvin. 12 Rounds!
Leonard was carefully managed. I HATE THAT!
(I have to admit, Sugar Gay was smart. But that what he did all his career? Was chickensh*t.) IMO he is not even an ATG fighter!

Last edited by tommythomas3; 08-30-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:11 AM   #62
Stevie G
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by TIGEREDGE View Post
i am a massive fan of ray leonard. he was great from 76-82 and his performance against marvin was amazing considering his inactivity (lets forget about what happened after that. dont recognise any of it) .

he has one of the greatest if not the greatest resume/record of all time

he was deffo one of the top 10 most gifted fighters of all time but he never had enough fights to warrant being considered one of the top 20 greatest of alltime.

he never established that he was the better man in any of his rivalries with the fellow all time greats of his time that he beat once.

if not for the detached retina imn pretty convinced he would of achieved enough to warrant being in the top 20

i think its ridiculous when people list him in top 5

Top 15 easily. Only his inactivity during his prime years stops him from being rated a lot higher.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:33 AM   #63
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Sugar Ray Leonard with a win over:

Tommy Hearns (Top 5-10 Welterweight all-time)
Roberto Duran (Top 5 Lightweight all-time)
Marvelous Marvin Hagler (Top 5 Middleweight all-time)
Wilfredo Benitez (Top 20 Welterweight all-time)

These four men would be ranked in everyone's top 50 greatest fighters of all-time.
Take away Benitez and it would be Top 30
Take away Hearns and we are talking 20
Take way Hagler and we are talking top 15. For some top 5.

I think this puts Leonard's resume up there with Greb, Robinson, Charles, and Ali. Here is my list as of today.

Champ: SUGAR RAY ROBINSON

1. HARRY GREB
2. EZZARD CHARLES
3. HENRY ARSTRONG
3. MUHAMMAD ALI
4. SUGAR RAY LEONARD
5. BENNY LEONARD
6. ROBERTO DURAN
7. SAM LANGFORD
8. WILLIE PEP
9. JOE GANS
10. JOE LOUIS
11. CARLOS MONZON
12. MARVELOUS MARVIN HAGLER
13. MICKY WALKER
14. BARNEY ROSS
15. ALEXIS ARGUELLO
16. TONY CANZONERI
17. SANDY SADDLER
17. REBUEN OLIVARES
18. TOMMY HEARNS
19. CARMEN BASILIO

Last edited by JLP 6; 08-26-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:48 AM   #64
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Yeah, he is top 20 ATG worthy, he's far from a top 5, but I'd say somewhere close to, or even in top 10, would be his rightful spot. Talented boxer, no doubt, has an impressive resume to go along with it, but he resembles Ali a little bit too much to be one of my favorites fighters.
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:12 PM   #65
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Andrei00.

Who do you have in your top ten if you do not mind sharing? I am curious because of the Ali reference. I am not sure why what Leonard resembles is held against. Is Ali top ten worthy? Ali resembles Robinson...etc. See what I mean?
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:31 PM   #66
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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Originally Posted by JLP 6 View Post
Andrei00.

Who do you have in your top ten if you do not mind sharing? I am curious because of the Ali reference. I am not sure why what Leonard resembles is held against. Is Ali top ten worthy? Ali resembles Robinson...etc. See what I mean?
Well, okay, even if I haven't spent much time doing rankings all-time, I'll do a quick top 10 basically of the top of my head.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Henry Amrstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Willie Pep
6. Harry Greb
7. Joe Louis
8. Roberto Duran
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Joe Gans
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:35 PM   #67
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei00 View Post
Well, okay, even if I haven't spent much time doing rankings all-time, I'll do a quick top 10 basically of the top of my head.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Henry Amrstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Willie Pep
6. Harry Greb
7. Joe Louis
8. Roberto Duran
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Joe Gans

Nice list. Thank you.

Looking at your I see that I need to fix mine. I see some mistakes.

CHAMPION: SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
1. HARRY GREB
2. EZZARD CHARLES
3. SAM LANGFORD
4. HENRY ARSTRONG
5. MUHAMMAD ALI
6. JOE GANS
7. BENNY LEONARD
8. SUGAR RAY LEONARD
9. BENNY LEONARD
10. ROBERTO DURAN
11. JOE LOUIS
12. CARLOS MONZON
13. MARVELOUS MARVIN HAGLER
14. MICKY WALKER
15. TONY CANZONERI
16. WILLIE PEP
17. SANDY SADDLER
18. BARNEY ROSS
19. ALEXIS ARGUELLO
20. REBUEN OLIVARES
21. TOMMY HEARNS
22. ARCHIE MOORE
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:53 PM   #68
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Why are Arguello, Olivares, Hearns, Hagler, and Monzon above Moore?

Greb is cool in 2nd.

Ali is a bit high at 5.

Leonard above Duran I don't personally agree but not the worst thing I've ever seen
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:53 PM   #69
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP 6 View Post
Nice list. Thank you.

Looking at your I see that I need to fix mine. I see some mistakes.

CHAMPION: SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
1. HARRY GREB
2. EZZARD CHARLES
3. SAM LANGFORD
4. HENRY ARSTRONG
5. MUHAMMAD ALI
6. JOE GANS
7. BENNY LEONARD
8. SUGAR RAY LEONARD
9. BENNY LEONARD
10. ROBERTO DURAN
11. JOE LOUIS
12. CARLOS MONZON
13. MARVELOUS MARVIN HAGLER
14. MICKY WALKER
15. TONY CANZONERI
16. WILLIE PEP
17. SANDY SADDLER
18. BARNEY ROSS
19. ALEXIS ARGUELLO
20. REBUEN OLIVARES
21. TOMMY HEARNS
22. ARCHIE MOORE
Thanks, yours is not bad at all, although I don't agree with some of your choices. On a second note, I incline to drop Duran out of my top 10, will still work on a more accurate list, probably something like top 30. I'll even post it, if this topic is still hot by the time I'm finished.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:13 PM   #70
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei00 View Post
Thanks, yours is not bad at all, although I don't agree with some of your choices. On a second note, I incline to drop Duran out of my top 10, will still work on a more accurate list, probably something like top 30. I'll even post it, if this topic is still hot by the time I'm finished.
After seeing so many have him in it, it's a bit refreshing to see a differing opinion(even though I think he deserves the ranking).

What's your reasoning for leaving him out?
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:15 PM   #71
JLP 6
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrus View Post
Why are Arguello, Olivares, Hearns, Hagler, and Monzon above Moore?

Greb is cool in 2nd.

Ali is a bit high at 5.

Leonard above Duran I don't personally agree but not the worst thing I've ever seen
Thank you for the question.

I think those fighters are right there with him in terms of resume. I consider Hagler and Monzon more dominant champions than Moore, although I place a high premium on moving up and success at higher weights which tips it to Moore slightly. Olivares and Arguello, I personally admired thier skills in the ring on top of there remarkable resumes which they were champions at multiples weights.

But, I am not sure that fighters they beat or condended with rank with Moore's opponents. Hearns is the same case but with a slightly different twist. I consider the 154 Hearns great enough to beat the middleweight verision on Archie Moore. I cannot prove it but that is my sense.

Muhhamad is fine at 5. His resume and dominance at Heavyweight speaks for itself. On top of that I think that no Heavyweight in history could beat him including Joe Louis who is my favorite.

Duran is not ranked as high as Leonard because other than Leonard his resume contains no other all-time great win. His resume at lightweight is fanstatic but I take Leonard wins over Hearns, Benitez, Hagler and Duran himself over Duran entire body of work. That is how impressive Leonard's resume is to me.

Admitedly you have me thinking about the Moore ranking. Thank you for the feedback. It is helpful. I may need to go over my list and revise it.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:18 PM   #72
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

I think Leonard should be around top 15-20 depending on your criteria. Talent wise he's easy top 15, but resume wise, as good as it is, it's not the 100's of fights others have had. I also don't rate Jeffries as high as most for the same reason. Activity matters.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:24 PM   #73
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei00 View Post
Thanks, yours is not bad at all, although I don't agree with some of your choices. On a second note, I incline to drop Duran out of my top 10, will still work on a more accurate list, probably something like top 30. I'll even post it, if this topic is still hot by the time I'm finished.
Thank you for reviewing my list. It is always a work in progress.

I look forward to reviewing your updated list when you post it. Peace.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:27 PM   #74
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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Originally Posted by Vanboxingfan View Post
I think Leonard should be around top 15-20 depending on your criteria. Talent wise he's easy top 15, but resume wise, as good as it is, it's not the 100's of fights others have had. I also don't rate Jeffries as high as most for the same reason. Activity matters.
A suggestion further the discussion...

I am just going to ask for general purpose that if someone is going to post a critique it should be followed with at least thier own top 15-20. Let make the conversation interesting. A top 15-20 does not take much time to do. Take a risk and put your personal list under public strutiny. If you do not have one, think up one.

Thanks for considering it.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:28 PM   #75
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP 6 View Post
Nice list. Thank you.

Looking at your I see that I need to fix mine. I see some mistakes.

CHAMPION: SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
1. HARRY GREB
2. EZZARD CHARLES
3. SAM LANGFORD
4. HENRY ARSTRONG
5. MUHAMMAD ALI
6. JOE GANS
7. BENNY LEONARD
8. SUGAR RAY LEONARD
9. BENNY LEONARD
10. ROBERTO DURAN
11. JOE LOUIS
12. CARLOS MONZON
13. MARVELOUS MARVIN HAGLER
14. MICKY WALKER
15. TONY CANZONERI
16. WILLIE PEP
17. SANDY SADDLER
18. BARNEY ROSS
19. ALEXIS ARGUELLO
20. REBUEN OLIVARES
21. TOMMY HEARNS
22. ARCHIE MOORE

As much as I like Benny Leonard I don't think he deserves the 7th AND 9th rankings.
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