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Old 02-13-2013, 05:48 AM   #271
mcvey
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
I'll take an underwhelming, dominant performance any day of the week over a life and death performance in which fouls and the help of ringsiders figures into helping you win.

Since when is excitement a prerequisite to a title shot? Wills made around $10,000 to face Kid Norfolk though Im not altogether convinced that Wills smaller purse sizes has as much to do with his style as it did with the his skin pigmentation.

He certainly made more money than anyone else on the Greb-Walker card. Two white champions fought a highly anticipated hairraiser on that card. Wills fought a bout he was heavily favored to win as soon as it was signed and made more than anyone.
I never said excitement was prequisite for a title shot, it is however a mighty big asset.
From time immemorial exciting challengers have jumped the queue over more deserving fighters ,simply because they were box office. Graziano's three fights with Zale clearly show this.
Wills best wins over white challengers were over two men who had previously lasted a combined total of 5 minutes, and 5 seconds with Dempsey.

Wills could have pushed his claim more forcefully if he had kod Firpo, he did not he was content with a clear points decision.

I dont think you should linger too long when talking about fouls, Wills was disqualified three times.


"Wills outclassed the Spaniard in the first round, but made the serious mistake of hitting Castano on the jaw after the bell rang"

"Haley disqualified Wills for illegal use of a backhand blow. "Wills was battered about the ring from the start"


"Wills was disqualified for knocking Tate down after the referee's call to break;".

"The referee stopped the fight without rendering a decision after Thompson fell to the floor claiming a foul had been committed"

"Wills landed the only six blows of the fight, including a right to the back of Smith's head "

"McVey claimed a foul blow "but the referee declined to allow the claim." (Washington Post)"



A few dives/fakes


"The bout ended abruptly when one of Johnson's handlers tossed the towel of defeat into the ring. The New Jersey Boxing Commission took no action at first and the fighters were paid. But only a day or two later it barred Johnson from New Jersey rings for life, so he retired to his ranch in the Northwest never to fight again."



"The referee stopped the bout, claiming the two were stalling. Both boxers then were barred from boxing again in Philadelphia."


"According to the Bridgeport Telegram 'Bennett's showing was so poor that no word adequate to describe it can be found in any language or dialect.' After the bout it was announced that Bennett would be forever banned from fighting in New England and that he would not be payed, while boxing commissioners expressed their doubts whether the man in the ring, who had gone down at the slightest provocation, had been Bennett at all. As the Telegram did not explicitly report that Wills was declared the winner, there is a chance that the result was a No Contest."



"Wills defends his World 'colored' heavyweight title claim
After their loudly booed perfrormance, both fighters purses were withheld by the promoters"


"Wills won the newspaper decision according to both the Philadelphia Record and the Philadelphia Public Ledger (Paul Zabala). A press service report (Pittsburgh Post) said that Langford and Wills hit each other with "cream-puff blows>""


This is why Dempsey was in million dollar fights.


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What fight would you sooner pay to see Dempsey v Firpo, or Wills v Firpo? I suppose you'll say the Wills fight.

Last edited by mcvey; 02-13-2013 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:17 AM   #272
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

"Clay .Atlanta Constitution June 5th 1922.

Langford was interviewed and asked to give an opinion of Wills chances against Dempsey.

"Well if he ever fights Dempsey, my money will be on the present champion.
Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen.
He punches twice as hard as Jeffries,and is as fast in the ring as Corbett".

Thanks, hadn't seen that one before.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:39 PM   #273
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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Yes dominant, but unexciting ,maybe like Wlad's recent defence?

Wills said his biggest purse for fighting his black contemporaries was $1,500,and the average was $500.
Doesn't seem as though he was Mr Excitement.
But given Dempsey decided to leave the ring for Hollywood, having the number 1 coloured fighter dominate the number 1 white fighter made it very easy to identify the number 1 fighter in the world.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:56 PM   #274
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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But given Dempsey decided to leave the ring for Hollywood, having the number 1 coloured fighter dominate the number 1 white fighter made it very easy to identify the number 1 fighter in the world.
The number one fighter in the world?
The papers were not saying that after his fight with Firpo they were saying he would not give Dempsey much of a fight.

Wills two best wins over white fighters were over recycled Dempsey victims
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:11 PM   #275
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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That doesn't address my post.

You feel it is undermining to pick a Langford victory. Jack himself did this many times. Was he undermining himself?

My point is fighters say nice thing and both men spoke well about the other and I dont think picking a Langford victory would be undermining or true to fact.

IMO Dempsey beats Wills and I also think prime for prime was a different kind of heavyweight and like Sam said one of the Great fighters of the day. It may be a rock em sock em fight for a while but I for one would not discount a Dempsey victory by KO, in fact I like Jack positively against Wills and warmly against Sam.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:13 PM   #276
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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The number one fighter in the world?
The papers were not saying that after his fight with Firpo they were saying he would not give Dempsey much of a fight.

Wills two best wins over white fighters were over recycled Dempsey victims
This may be very true
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:25 PM   #277
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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My point is fighters say nice thing and both men spoke well about the other and I dont think picking a Langford victory would be undermining or true to fact.

IMO Dempsey beats Wills and I also think prime for prime was a different kind of heavyweight and like Sam said one of the Great fighters of the day. It may be a rock em sock em fight for a while but I for one would not discount a Dempsey victory by KO, in fact I like Jack positively against Wills and warmly against Sam.
Anyone who places credence in one fighters opinion of his chances against another, is going to end up severely financially depleted.
I think Dempsey beats Wills ,by ko in fact, and I'm not sold that Wills had the appetite for it when things got tough.

Dempsey took two scientific hidings from Tunney but he never stopped coming forward ,trying for the impossible ko.
Wills fouled out to Sharkey when a beating was on the cards ,and his stoppage by Paulino does not inspire me with confidence.

He pulled out against Battling Jim Johnson with a broken wrist, I don't blame him , but Johnson went a further 7 rounds with a broken radius bone against the same man.

I'm not suggesting he was a coward, all fighters are brave , they have to be to get in there in the first place, but there are varying degrees of courage.
I wonder if Harry's ***** were as big as his rep appears to be getting?
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:54 PM   #278
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

"I think Dempsey beats Wills ,by ko in fact, and I'm not sold that Wills had the appetite for it when things got tough."

I don't know about that, seems like anybody that could fight as many rounds during all those fights with Langford, even if Sam may have been past his peak, would have to be able to handle himself when things got tough pretty well.

And wasn't Wills getting a little long in the tooth himself about the time he fought Sharkey and Paulino? Looks like he would have been about 37-38 at the time of those fights.

In hindsight, Dempsey and his management would have most likely made a much better decision had they fought the older Wills in 1926 instead of Tunney.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:18 PM   #279
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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"I think Dempsey beats Wills ,by ko in fact, and I'm not sold that Wills had the appetite for it when things got tough."

I don't know about that, seems like anybody that could fight as many rounds during all those fights with Langford, even if Sam may have been past his peak, would have to be able to handle himself when things got tough pretty well.

And wasn't Wills getting a little long in the tooth himself about the time he fought Sharkey and Paulino? Looks like he would have been about 37-38 at the time of those fights.

In hindsight, Dempsey and his management would have most likely made a much better decision had they fought the older Wills in 1926 instead of Tunney.
Wills was indeed getting on, but he was a health nut, famous for it .
Johnson was a fat 37 when he went 26rds with Willard.
Wills was 28 when he quit against Battling Jim , Johnson was 34 and had not fought for a year and a half, yet he struggled through the contest.
Dempsey was hardly prime either , when Tunney boxed his ears off .

Jeannette, Langford, and McVey proved their ***** were huge.
I don't think Wills ever did.

My point stands I think.
I agree with Dempsey fighting Wills instead of Tunney I think it would have been an early night for Mr Wills.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:26 PM   #280
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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My point is fighters say nice thing and both men spoke well about the other and I dont think picking a Langford victory would be undermining or true to fact.

IMO Dempsey beats Wills and I also think prime for prime was a different kind of heavyweight and like Sam said one of the Great fighters of the day. It may be a rock em sock em fight for a while but I for one would not discount a Dempsey victory by KO, in fact I like Jack positively against Wills and warmly against Sam.
on what do you base your Dempsey pick over Wills?
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:29 PM   #281
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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The number one fighter in the world?
The papers were not saying that after his fight with Firpo they were saying he would not give Dempsey much of a fight.

Wills two best wins over white fighters were over recycled Dempsey victims
Who would you put above him during this time?

eugh, using the word recycled in that era given how often people fought is ridiculous. I mean afterall, near every one of jack's successful defences was against a recycled Greb victim.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:04 PM   #282
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

"Dempsey was hardly prime either , when Tunney boxed his ears off."

True enough. I consider myself somewhat of a health nut myself . I've worked out at least 5-6 days a week in the gym and have played basketball all my life. No matter how well I kept myself in shape there was clearly a noted decline in my performance on the basketball court as a 32 year old versus a 36-37 year old. I noticed my first drop in speed, although slight at age 28, then I lost another gear by age 32, a third by about 35 and it's been a gradual decline ever since. As they say, you can't beat father time. If Dempsey had slipped that much by the age of 32 imagine him 4-5 years later.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:06 PM   #283
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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on what do you base your Dempsey pick over Wills?
Wills was pretty much a stand up type of boxer, not so much elusive or electric as a puncher with speed or power, Dempsey was electric with power and speed. I see Dempsey being a perfect fit for that style and being able to land and land again. Film I have seen of Wills was when he was older but I can draw an inference based on styles
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:14 PM   #284
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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"Dempsey was hardly prime either , when Tunney boxed his ears off."

True enough. I consider myself somewhat of a health nut myself . I've worked out at least 5-6 days a week in the gym and have played basketball all my life. No matter how well I kept myself in shape there was clearly a noted decline in my performance on the basketball court as a 32 year old versus a 36-37 year old. I noticed my first drop in speed, although slight at age 28, then I lost another gear by age 32, a third by about 35 and it's been a gradual decline ever since. As they say, you can't beat father time. If Dempsey had slipped that much by the age of 32 imagine him 4-5 years later.
I still box a bit but have trained always in the boxing gym. My punch is still pretty good and have hurt and dropped many a younger guy and can still do so with certainty but where i have seen decline is with my speed of foot (tend to stiffen up a bit more than they used to) hand speed still good but reflexes dulled a bit. the decades or more than age ( inactivity) can slow you down. You can still maintain outstanding shape at your age but to maintain form at the level of when you were in your 20's,30's even 40's is like shoveling **** against the tide.

In Dempseys case it was being inactive more than age but as we saw with Sharkey and the long count with Tunney the Tiger still had some life but hard is the rust
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:19 PM   #285
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Default Re: Dempsey v Langford

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Wills was pretty much a stand up type of boxer, not so much elusive or electric as a puncher with speed or power, Dempsey was electric with power and speed. I see Dempsey being a perfect fit for that style and being able to land and land again. Film I have seen of Wills was when he was older but I can draw an inference based on styles
I can't buy into a judgement of a fighter I haven't seen on film.
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