Roy Jones Jr in talks with Steve Collins

[EdgarAllenPoop]

Phil Collins could probably beat RJJ at this point.

[general zod]

Originally Posted by Loudon

I can only assume, that Roy did that because Collins had challenged him out in his hometown in front of his fans.
If he gave Levin the green light, he must have had the intention of going ahead originally.

Not really.
It could of been his way of "getting back" at Collins. He had ignored him from 95-97, why fight him because he has climbed into the ring?

Originally Posted by Loudon

But we both know that boxing is a business. Murad's a successful businesman, and we know from your links that the bigger fight for everyone concerned, was a unification against Reggie Johnson.

The point is that the Collins fight was never brought to Dibella. How can you be serious about a fight and not bring it to your network? Why is Murad not involved? It's his job to negotiate with the networks

Originally Posted by Loudon

If Murad and De Bella had offered Roy the Reggie fight, which is obviously what happened, then it was obvious he was going to ditch Collins.

If that is what happened then it should of been up to Roy to tell Collins, there had been a change of plan as soon as possible. Instead we find out that Dibella did not have the slightest idea what Collins was talking about and then said the fight was not viable.

Originally Posted by Loudon

Although he obviously should have told Levin. I think if Roy hadn't have had any intentions of fighting Steve, then I don't think he'd have given Levin the green light in the first place.

Jones' relationship with Levin had already deteriorated at this point. Back in 97 Lampley would report that Jones was planning to sack the Levins because they were not getting him the money he felt he deserved. When asked about it, after Griffin II, Jones said it wasn't true, but there was obviously a problem, which is why he brought in Murad. Bringing in Murad was basically "a slap in Levin face", because Levin did not trust promoters and did not think any long term association with any of them was a good idea.

Murad was most likely "skimming of the top", which is why Levin was having such a hard time getting the numbers

Levin created Square Ring so they could promote Jones's fights "in house". By bringing in Murad he is basically saying that Levin's Square Ring was not competent. If Jones had to blame anyone he should of blamed himself. No one cared about all of those mis-mandatories he kept on facing.

[general zod]

Originally Posted by Loudon

Zod,

Hi mate, thanks for the reply.


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These quotes below are hilarious. Who did Collins think he was? Roy had beaten nobody? Collins beat a faded Benn and Eubank, and only held the WBO belt that wasn't respected back then.



The above article is from mid to late 96, after Roy had fought Eric Lucas.

After this article, Roy fought Bryant Brannon and then decided to move to 175. He had no chance of unifying at 168, because as mentioned previously, The Levin's were reluctant to deal with King. So he went to 175 for a fresh challenge.

Collins thought that he was somebody he wasn't. Why would Roy have been bothered about fighting him? Unless it was for a ridiculous sum, there was nothing to gain. Collins wasn't big in the U.S. and obviously his WBO belt wouldn't have meant anything to Roy. So it was either move up to 175, or stay and fight Collins. He chose to go to 175.



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Another ridiculous quote from Steve.

This article was written just before Roy's first fight with Griffin.

Roy was at 175 at this point. He said after Griffin, he wanted to fight Virgil Hill.

Again, why would Roy have wanted to have fought Collins at that point?

Collins didn't even fight at 175.


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I agree that $5M was a ridiculous offer. It's clear that Roy had no real interest in fighting him. The above article was just after he'd knocked out Griffin in the rematch. He then went onto fight Hill, and then he won the WBA belt against De Valle. The article also mentions that they were trying to negotiate for DM.

Where was Steve at this point? Again, why would Roy have wanted to fight him?

Collins was just trash talking, I take a lot of that stuff with a pinch of salt

The thing is that Roy Jones' reign at 168 is not that good. Collins would of been his second best win there after Toney.

[general zod]

Originally Posted by Loudon

This is what we discussed last week.

Collins went to the Frazier fight, and climbed in the ring afterwards. Roy obviously gave Levin the green light afterwards to make the fight.

Obviously while that was happening, Murad swooped in, and offered Roy a much bigger fight, against Reggie Johnson to unify at 175. I don't condone Roy's behaviour, and he should have told Levin.

Nobody at HBO wanted the Collins fight, and I don't think many fans did either, apart from Steve's own supporters. It wouldn't have been a big fight. Why fight a retired 168 guy, when you can unify at 175?

The fight could never have happened anyway, because we know that Collins collapsed whilst training for Joe.

Again, I don't condone Roy's behaviour, and I've got an enormous amount of respect for Collins, but he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Had Collins been a major belt holder at 168, or 175, or a mandatory and Roy had avoided him, then it would be a different matter.

But other than a big sum of money, why would Roy have wanted to fight Steve? He had nothing to gain by fighting him. I think we can safely say that the $5M was simply said to get rid of him, unless it was to lose muscle to drop back to 168, and/or to fight in Ireland etc, which the article doesn't specify.

I sympathise with Steve, but I don't call it a duck, because I certainly don't think that Roy feared losing to him. I think Roy dismissed him.

Jones should of told Collins what he needed to do to get a fight, like get a more legit belt, instead of messing him around. That's the problem I have with the whole thing. In the end he got the Johnson fight, but ended up falling out with Levin. So he lost more than he gained in the long run.

[general zod]

Originally Posted by Loudon

Thanks a lot for posting that, I've heard most of it before. It was very interesting, but sad at the same time. I'd love to know what Stan thought of Alton Merkerson. I wonder if he though he'd done a great job with Roy, or whether another trainer may have have gotten more from him?

Thanks again.

True.

Alton should of jumped ship after Tarver III, or Calzaghe at the latest. I've never read anything where Levin comments on Merkenson

[Loudon]

Zod,

Not really.
It could of been his way of "getting back" at Collins. He had ignored him from 95-97, why fight him because he has climbed into the ring?

Because it was in Pensacola, in front of his close friends and family etc. He had to react. People would have been constantly asking him for a response. I think he told Levin to make the fight in the heat of the moment. But I honestly don't believe that Roy would have told Levin to make the fight, if he'd have had absolutely no intentions of going through with it originally.

The point is that the Collins fight was never brought to Dibella. How can you be serious about a fight and not bring it to your network? Why is Murad not involved? It's his job to negotiate with the networks

Like I've mentioned previously, I assume that as soon as Roy had told Murad that he'd told Levin to make the fight, Murad at that point must have told Roy to back out, and sold him the prospect of the Reggie Johnson fight. Murad obviously had no intention of trying to make a Collins fight with Levin. Like I say, I think Roy agreed to the fight in the heat of the moment, and he should have either have gone ahead with it, or he should have told Levin to the pull the plug. Maybe he didn't want to mess Levin about, and tell him he'd changed his mind? But by doing that he obviously made the situation worse.

If that is what happened then it should of been up to Roy to tell Collins, there had been a change of plan as soon as possible. Instead we find out that Dibella did not have the slightest idea what Collins was talking about and then said the fight was not viable.

I doubt Roy had ever had any direct contact with Steve apart from when they'd met in the ring. I agree though that he should have told Levin asap, and he should have had a meeting with both Levin and Murad to discuss the best option. What we don't know is the dates involved. When did Roy first tell Murad that he'd given the green light to Levin? I agree with you though, in that Roy was out of order.

Jones' relationship with Levin had already deteriorated at this point. Back in 97 Lampley would report that Jones was planning to sack the Levins because they were not getting him the money he felt he deserved. When asked about it, after Griffin II, Jones said it wasn't true, but there was obviously a problem, which is why he brought in Murad. Bringing in Murad was basically "a slap in Levin face", because Levin did not trust promoters and did not think any long term association with any of them was a good idea.

That's right. We know Stan and Fred didn't want to deal with the likes of King. But as Roy got older, he obviously thought that they needed Murad on board. According to Murad he got Roy the Ruiz fight for $17M. These links that you've posted are very sad to read, because the Levin's had helped Roy since the Olympics and they were like a family.

Murad was most likely "skimming of the top", which is why Levin was having such a hard time getting the numbers

Possibly.

Levin created Square Ring so they could promote Jones's fights "in house". By bringing in Murad he is basically saying that Levin's Square Ring was not competent. If Jones had to blame anyone he should of blamed himself. No one cared about all of those mis-mandatories he kept on facing.

We weren't in his shoes. I'm sure in Roy's mind, he thought that bringing Murad in would be beneficial. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Roy's made a lot of mistakes in his career, and you're right, nobody cared about those mandatories he kept facing. But it's a myth that Roy was just content on fighting bums and nobody else. We know from your great links that I keep posting, that the fight with DM couldn't be made. Jacobs, Davis and Murad tried to make the fight. Murad also tried to make the rematch with Hop. As mentioned, Murad got the Ruiz fight, and he negotiated at length to try and make a Tyson fight too. We know that Roy was reluctant to face a few fighters, but if he'd have been content to only face bums, he wouldn't have faced Tarver and Ruiz etc. Like I say, it's sad that Roy's relationship with Stan deteriorated like it did, but you can't deny that Murad also had a positive impact on Roy's career. I'm certain that Roy thought bringing in Murad was the right thing to do, and he wouldn't have intentionally wanted to upset Stan and force him out. I don't believe that.

[Loudon]

Part 2.

Collins was just trash talking, I take a lot of that stuff with a pinch of salt

The thing is that Roy Jones' reign at 168 is not that good. Collins would of been his second best win there after Toney.

I don't think Collins was just trash talking. I think he believed what he was saying.

Collins would have been his second best win after Toney, but Steve's WBO belt wasn't enough to entice Roy into a fight. The Levin's didn't want to deal with King. The Benn fight was hard to make, and a fight with Liles probably would have been just as hard to make, with Don wanting his claws in the worlds best fighter. He went up to 175 for a fresh challenge. I think if Steve had've had a major belt at 175, Roy would have been a lot more open to fighting him. Other than a huge some of money, there was no benefit in Roy hanging around for a Collins fight. I also believe that had Roy beaten him, he wouldnt' have got much credit for it.

[Loudon]

Part 3.

Jones should of told Collins what he needed to do to get a fight, like get a more legit belt, instead of messing him around. That's the problem I have with the whole thing. In the end he got the Johnson fight, but ended up falling out with Levin. So he lost more than he gained in the long run.

That should have been obvious. Collins was a legend in his own mind. Outside of Britain, that wouldn't have been a big fight in 1999. I'm in full agreement that Roy messed Collins and Stan around, but again, I don't think he did it intentionally. Murad turned his head, and Roy wanted the bigger fight. He wasn't ducked, he was dismissed. If Steve had've been the IBF 175 champ, I'm sure Roy would have wanted to have fought him. I don't believe that Roy had any fear of losing to Steve.

You're right, Roy lost more than he gained, because of what happened with Stan. But again, I just don't believe that Roy did it intentionally. People make mistakes.

[Loudon]

Part 4.

Alton should of jumped ship after Tarver III, or Calzaghe at the latest. I've never read anything where Levin comments on Merkenson

He's been with Roy a long time. I'm sure he thinks that Roy should have retired a long time ago. Roy's got a new trainer now, Tom Yankello, but Merk is still in the background.

Thanks a lot for your reply.

[general zod]

Originally Posted by Loudon

Because it was in Pensacola, in front of his close friends and family etc. He had to react. People would have been constantly asking him for a response.

There was an interview that Jones gave before the Calzaghe fight (been searching for ages but I can't find it anymore), where Jones himself would admit that he had no intention of fighting Collins because he called him out in the ring instead of taking time out and asking him nicely

Originally Posted by Loudon

Possibly.

Murad has always been a scumbag.

NEW YORK, NY (April 27, 2005), -- Former two-time world champion MANNY PACQUIAO announced today that he has filed suit against his promoters M&M Sports, Inc. and Murad Muhammad, in United States District Court for the Southern District of New York.. The lawsuit alleges, among other things, that the defendants corrupted Mr. Pacquiao's business managers by transferring more than 30% of Mr. Pacquiao's purses to a shell limited liability company controlled by the business managers on the fiction that Mr. Pacquiao's United States taxes would be paid out of those monies. In fact, unbeknownst to Mr. Pacquiao, the tax monies were never paid, leaving Mr. Pacquiao with a massive bill for back taxes, penalties and interest.

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PACQUIAO AND MUHAMMAD SETTLE IN NEW YORK
In June 2005, Pacquiaos attorneysÃ_Judd Burstein, Keith Davidson, and Nick KahnÃ_filed a lawsuit against Muhammad in New York Federal Court, claiming violations in the Muhammad Ali Boxing Act. Both parties actually went to trail, but before a jury could decide the victor, both parties agreed to a settlement. In the settlement, Pacquiao was freed from his promotional contract, and Muhammad paid an undisclosed amount to the three-time champion.

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Originally Posted by Loudon

We weren't in his shoes. I'm sure in Roy's mind, he thought that bringing Murad in would be beneficial. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Roy's made a lot of mistakes in his career, and you're right, nobody cared about those mandatories he kept facing. But it's a myth that Roy was just content on fighting bums and nobody else. We know from your great links that I keep posting, that the fight with DM couldn't be made. Jacobs, Davis and Murad tried to make the fight. Murad also tried to make the rematch with Hop. As mentioned, Murad got the Ruiz fight, and he negotiated at length to try and make a Tyson fight too.

Murad's reason for why the Tyson fight fell through makes no sense and is at complete odds with Tyson's account.

Originally Posted by Loudon

We know that Roy was reluctant to face a few fighters, but if he'd have been content to only face bums, he wouldn't have faced Tarver and Ruiz etc.

He tried to put that Tarver fight off for as long as he could. Tarver was forced to go to the WBC to force Jones to give him a rematch

Jones abused his HBO contract and forced them to buy a lot of fights they just did not want. It's the reason why they have now completely changed there contracts. If you just fight mandos then they drop your purse.

Originally Posted by Loudon

Like I say, it's sad that Roy's relationship with Stan deteriorated like it did, but you can't deny that Murad also had a positive impact on Roy's career. I'm certain that Roy thought bringing in Murad was the right thing to do, and he wouldn't have intentionally wanted to upset Stan and force him out. I don't believe that.

Levin did not just one day decide to up and leave. It was a string of things over the years that forced him to do that. He said himself it got to the point where Jones openly saw him as his enemy. What else did Jones hope to achieve except pushing Levin out?

[general zod]

Originally Posted by Loudon

I don't think Collins was just trash talking. I think he believed what he was saying.

Collins would have been his second best win after Toney, but Steve's WBO belt wasn't enough to entice Roy into a fight.

At the end of the day its not always about belts

Collins was also ranked by the Ring, something which cannot be said for a lot of Jones' smw title defenses. By mid 96 Toney would state that HBo were unhappy with Jones's opponents.

Originally Posted by Loudon

The Levin's didn't want to deal with King.

Toney also did not want to deal with King, but he had to to make the Jackson fight happen. It was agreed upon, before HBO decided to kill it.

Whitaker was in the same boat when he wanted to fight Chavez. The same goes for Lewis who wanted to unify with Holyfield.

This is boxing at some point have to deal with people you don't like.

Originally Posted by Loudon

The Benn fight was hard to make

The only person who claims that is Jones. The same Jones who has now given us three contradicting stories for why the fight could not happen

Originally Posted by Loudon

and a fight with Liles probably would have been just as hard to make, with Don wanting his claws in the worlds best fighter.

Maybe and maybe not.
There have been plenty of fights made where King got 1 or no options on the winner. Lewis-Holyfield comes to mind.

Originally Posted by Loudon

He went up to 175 for a fresh challenge.

Not really true.

He was offered the Hill fight after McCallum and turned it down giving a string of excuses. He only took that fight when Hill was past prime and coming off a loss.

Refused to give Rochigiani his more than deserved shot

Refused to give Toney a rematch even though HBO wanted it and stubbornly refused to fight Nunn. He also turned down the Guthrie fight.

[Flexb]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

time to retire when this sort of fight is happening.

You're about 7 years late with that one

[Loudon]

Originally Posted by EdgarAllenPoop

Phil Collins could probably beat RJJ at this point.

I'm a huge fan of Roy's, but this really made me laugh.

[Mind Reader]

Originally Posted by Loudon

I'm a huge fan of Roy's, but this really made me laugh.

Collins' ring walk would be epic.. "In the air tonight" would be a fitting song.

[Son of Gaul]

Roy needs to find a hobby.