Who is greater? Willie Pep or Benny Leonard?

[PhillyPhan69]

Originally Posted by the_bigunit

I would like to thank everyone for their input. It's all unbelievably appreciated.

With Benny Leonard and Roberto Duran's greatness so neck and neck with each other: does Leonard being greater than Pep -- make Duran greater as well?

Not for me....but I don't see Duran as neck and neck w/ Leonard. I see him as neck and neck w/ Joe Gans and place both guys in the top 11-15 range, while most place duran top 10.

[the_bigunit]

That's exactly where I've been myself. Your input was much needed reassurance.

[Flea Man]

I have Duran above Pep for sure. His P4P achievements are unreal. And he picked up quite a few quality scalps as well as a couple of truly astounding wins. No one can have any issue with Duran being ranked higher than Pep (and probably vice versa)

Pep gets massive credit for getting anywhere near 'clubfighter' after the crash so he gets insane kudos (and some slack) for reaching the highs he did despite his spottier looking record. Great fighter.

Really trying to split these guys it's 'what d'ya like'? But I'm very comfortable with Duran>Pep. I can take Ross>Pep as well.

[Bill Butcher]

Originally Posted by Grinder

Benny Leonard is an argument for number one all time great.

An extremely weak one though. Its blasphemy to rank Leonard over Robinson.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Bill Butcher

An extremely weak one though. Its blasphemy to rank Leonard over Robinson.

BB, by all who saw Benny Leonard defend his lightweight title for almost 7 years, beating the likes of Johnny Kilbane, Freddie Welsh, Johnny Dundee, Lew Tendler, Charley White, Richie Mitchell, Ever Hammer, koing the
bullish Rocky Kansas, and the 2 best black lightweights of his time, Leo Johnson and Eddie Dorsey in 1 and two rounds, the tough Soldier Bartfield, etc, why is it "blasphemy" to compare the peerless Benny with the WW Ray Robinson P4P ? I think not, as both were as perfect in their divisions
according to the record and boxing people who saw them both perform as anyone else ever....It has been hinted many times that Leonard could name the "round" for a ko with most opponents but he would run out of
viable lightweight gate attractions for rematches...The great Bennah and
Sugar Ray equal in my eyes, and Leonard being about 5 ft 6" didn't have the
height advantage of the 5ft11" elongated Robinson had at WW....But 2
immortals were they...

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Bill Butcher

An extremely weak one though. Its blasphemy to rank Leonard over Robinson.

But you wouldn't know why you don't agree.

[ripcity]

Originally Posted by orriray59

I've heard by some that B. Leonard didn't look impressive on film, yet I thought he looked wonderful. Am I not seeing something? Controlled the ring very well, feinted excellently, brilliant punch placement, etc.

The only film I've seen of leonard was his first bout with Tendler, a very talented featherweight and lightweight. It has been argued the only thing keeping the southpaw (It was very rare for boxers to fight southpaw in those days, more so than today.) from winning the lightweight championship was Leonard him self. Tasked with beating a talented and awkward oppoent. Leonard is clearly the better man. Even if he gets clocked in the 8th round. The other is his last fight against McLarnin in his last fight. By than taking seven years off and fighting 20 bums in a row had taken its toll.

[ripcity]

Pep is great. Leonard is greater.

[Addie]

I canne find any footage of Benny.

[LittleRed]

[url]********youtube.com/watch?v=ASRKcEJYy3I[/url]

[Manassa]

In my opinion Leonard was about as good as any boxer can be. Slightly different rules and gloves and crusty, silent footage, disguises his sophisticated technique. The counter punching is elite.

There is a reason he was untouchable even in such a deep era.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Manassa

In my opinion Leonard was about as good as any boxer can be. Slightly different rules and gloves and crusty, silent footage, disguises his sophisticated technique. The counter punching is elite.

There is a reason he was untouchable even in such a deep era.

M, fans must remember that out of about 212 bouts in which Leonard kod about 69 opponents some of them ALL-Time great lightweights, we only
see Leonard in but 2 films. One against possibly the best lightweight southpaw Lew Tendler, who would have been a champion in any other era,
and when the old fat, Leonard returned to the ring after SEVEN years
of retirement, against a truly great prime Jimmy McLarnin..Leonard desperate for money lost all his money in the Wall street crash of 1929, and was a pitiful shell of his former greatness. So we cannot judge Leonard by ONE film against the toughest southpaw of those bygone days Lew
Tendler...Like judging 100 years from now a Robinson against a Randy Turpin in London, or an Ali, against a Henry Cooper or Ken Noton...
No, we must judge Leonard based on the fact he was the most flawless Lightweight in history, as his RECORD shows...

[PetethePrince]

Leonard. It's a record edge, which is what it always should come down to. Pep still may be the greatest pure boxer the sport has ever seen... may

[ETM]

Going against the grain I think Pep is greater...Leonard was the better fighter at their respective peaks because he had more power and could end a fight when he got a man in trouble.

Pep greater IMV because of his longevity and the fact that he did win the title back from a fellow alltime great in Sandy Saddler.

It is definitley splitting hairs.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by ETM

Going against the grain I think Pep is greater...Leonard was the better fighter at their respective peaks because he had more power and could end a fight when he got a man in trouble.

Pep greater IMV because of his longevity and the fact that he did win the title back from a fellow alltime great in Sandy Saddler.

It is definitley splitting hairs.

Seeing Willie Pep in his prime, there is no greater admirer of Willie.
However great as Pep was, Leonard was a masterful boxer with a great
boxing brain who could also hit with trip-hammer blows...He flattened a Rocky Kansas who was a block of concrete, with one punch. And ETM for seven years Leonard DOMINATED the greatest array of lightweights, and was still in peak form when he adhered to his mom's wishes to quit
boxing...