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Old 02-05-2013, 08:15 AM   #106
Zacker
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
So in mentioning he was past prime, are you making excuses for what you acknowledge ought to have been a loss?

I'll admit to not knowing much about his career before '96 but obviously he was class to have been a 3x world champion and rep Bulgaria twice in the Olympics.

Regardless of the reasons why, he was outperformed by Mayweather. If you want to say prime Todorov beats him legitimately, fine, that is a different conversation. You would need to provide some video evidence of his greatest prime exploits as back-up, though.

This is pretty much what I've stated here.

I stand by Mayweather and Aragón both looking better on film than 1996's version of Todorov.
I can't even remember what I wanted to say. Originally I just wanted to reply to one point but I couldn't help myself and all that above came out.

Right, it was about not being on the same wavelength ass Aragon and Mayweather. This irks me because it's very often said in one way or another and it's a bit disrespecting to such an accomplished boxer. For example in the piece by Lee Whatever (the one on my ignore list :P) he mentions Todorov got further than ever before in the olympics and that he turned professional after Atlanta with small success. Technically correct but an unbiased observer would say that he's a three time world and european champion and never mention the pro career at all since it really wasn't one. It was just a few pro bouts by a retired/semi-retired amateur boxer with a normal job in the military (I believe).

I wanted to say that he would have been on the same wavelength had he not been past it, and one could say that it was shown in berlin when Mayweather lost in the second round and Todorov won the gold (beating the guy who beat Mayweather in the final relatively comfortable [going on the scores because I can't remember the match]). But what I mostly remember from 1995 is that I wasn't so impressed with Todorov as I used to be.

Unfortunately I don't think there is much of Todorov on the net and I only have my memories. I have looked for clips in the past and asked the guy doing the old boxpres site to upload some of his material but I don't think he did. Todorov was a very quick long range counter puncher but also pretty much a slapper (got warnings and point deductions all the time for that). I don't think you would have liked him very much, he often got booed by the audience (you could say that that was a bulgarian speciality actually) but I enjoyed his matches tremendously. There wasn't so much left of his speed in 1996 though.

God, already too long. On with it.

Quote:
I understand that. The old AIBA system has been under fire and constant scrutiny for a long time...precisely because its various interpretations allow shifting trends in judging depending on the era to produce wildly different results than what most are watching.

In 1996 it's quite obvious they ignored most clean jabs, and virtually all body punches unless they doubled someone over or forced them to a knee or something. All judges looked at was clean power punches to the head. The fact that it was popular convention for nearly all judges back then doesn't make it right. Nowhere in the AIBA rules did it ever, to my knowledge, say to completely neglect jabs and body punches. It was just a custom that developed, and led to far too few points being scored. Competitors who didn't "adapt" themselves to such customs because they were trained to incorporate lots of jabs and body punches subsequently faced unfair disadvantage.
Spot on I think. But that's how the scoring was. And americans has been bad at adapting for a long time. In fact it only seem to get worse. Now new rules are here, although I'm sure that team USA are going to find a way to screw themselves over.


Quote:
It was pretty bad, Zack.

The decision was soundly booed. (granted it was a partisan USA crowd and thus pro-Mayweather, but it's hardly the same kind of drunken ignorant casual fan attending the Olympics as would go to a local club show to root for a regional prospect)

Yes, Emil Jetchev heading up the officials was a big issue, and it ran deeper than Mayweather getting shorted against Todorov. Bulgaria had a nice team, but three gold medal matches? All on the up-and-up, IYO? Furthermore, the Americans' protest directly alleged that Jetchev bullied the judges of the match into favoring Todorov. It was not merely a dispute over a single point. They also lodged complaint about no mandatory 2-point deduction from Todorov after five warnings for slapping.
Sry, don't understand the italicized part. But the Emil Jetchev stuff is just circumstantial. This critique wasn't new anyway and it might just have been an opportunity to vent on him.

Booing was standard in Todorov's matches, lol, but usually when he was running away and he wasn't very much against Mayweather. Anyway, the crowd surely must have been partisan towards Mayweather, this being in the USA. How much of a role does it play in the booing? Don't know and I don't concern myself with it.

I don't think the protest can be found any longer but I'm sure it has been made juicier over the years. As I remember it the only part with an actual bearing on the result was about one point in the third round. Not sure if I can find out if I'm right or wrong but I regard american media's coverage of this with a healthy dose of scepticism.

I had the match a win for Mayweather but with the electronic scoring system that were in place a Todorov win was possible. So I don't think it was such a robbery. It's been blown way out of proportion due to Mayweather's popularity.

Quote:
Actually, it did. I know for a fact that Bill Waeckerle resigned from AIBA in disgust: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Right, I blame my reading comprehension for my categorical statment. And I blame my reading comprehension on a lack of sleep. I thought you meant someone responsible for the alledged robbery. I.e. heads were rolling due to Mayweather's loss.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:19 AM   #107
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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I can't even remember what I wanted to say. Originally I just wanted to reply to one point but I couldn't help myself and all that above came out.

Right, it was about not being on the same wavelength ass Aragon and Mayweather. This irks me because it's very often said in one way or another and it's a bit disrespecting to such an accomplished boxer. For example in the piece by Lee Whatever (the one on my ignore list :P) he mentions Todorov got further than ever before in the olympics and that he turned professional after Atlanta with small success. Technically correct but an unbiased observer would say that he's a three time world and european champion and never mention the pro career at all since it really wasn't one. It was just a few pro bouts by a retired/semi-retired amateur boxer with a normal job in the military (I believe).

I wanted to say that he would have been on the same wavelength had he not been past it, and one could say that it was shown in berlin when Mayweather lost in the second round and Todorov won the gold (beating the guy who beat Mayweather in the final relatively comfortable [going on the scores because I can't remember the match]). But what I mostly remember from 1995 is that I wasn't so impressed with Todorov as I used to be.

Unfortunately I don't think there is much of Todorov on the net and I only have my memories. I have looked for clips in the past and asked the guy doing the old boxpres site to upload some of his material but I don't think he did. Todorov was a very quick long range counter puncher but also pretty much a slapper (got warnings and point deductions all the time for that). I don't think you would have liked him very much, he often got booed by the audience (you could say that that was a bulgarian speciality actually) but I enjoyed his matches tremendously. There wasn't so much left of his speed in 1996 though.

God, already too long. On with it.

Spot on I think. But that's how the scoring was. And americans has been bad at adapting for a long time. In fact it only seem to get worse. Now new rules are here, although I'm sure that team USA are going to find a way to screw themselves over.


Sry, don't understand the italicized part. But the Emil Jetchev stuff is just circumstantial. This critique wasn't new anyway and it might just have been an opportunity to vent on him.

Booing was standard in Todorov's matches, lol, but usually when he was running away and he wasn't very much against Mayweather. Anyway, the crowd surely must have been partisan towards Mayweather, this being in the USA. How much of a role does it play in the booing? Don't know and I don't concern myself with it.

I don't think the protest can be found any longer but I'm sure it has been made juicier over the years. As I remember it the only part with an actual bearing on the result was about one point in the third round. Not sure if I can find out if I'm right or wrong but I regard american media's coverage of this with a healthy dose of scepticism.

I had the match a win for Mayweather but with the electronic scoring system that were in place a Todorov win was possible. So I don't think it was such a robbery. It's been blown way out of proportion due to Mayweather's popularity.

Right, I blame my reading comprehension for my categorical statment. And I blame my reading comprehension on a lack of sleep. I thought you meant someone responsible for the alledged robbery. I.e. heads were rolling due to Mayweather's loss.
Are you Bulgarian?
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:23 AM   #108
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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Originally Posted by Mamerto View Post
Are you Bulgarian?
Why?
No.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:36 AM   #109
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

And just because... I tried to find the wording of the protest but failed. Instead I saw this:

"He wasn't tough," Mayweather said. "I thought the Cuban was tougher," referring to Lorenzo Aragon, whom he defeated wednesday night.
"Mostly he was slapping me with the strap of his gloves. When the fight finished, I thought I was ahead or at least tied. So I wasn't surprised when the referee raised my hand."

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Does that make anyone change their minds about this fight being a huge robbery?
No. Didn't think so. Neither will anything Lee Whatever writes 10 years after or the scoring of IB. I still see what I saw in 1996. The match is still worth talking about, though, but attempts to convince me are futile.

I may be alone on ESB but THERE'S MORE OF US OUT THERE!

Mmm. I like the ring of that. In whose voice should I hear those words..?
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:18 AM   #110
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

Aragón competed at the 1996 Olympics as a featherweight, losing in the quarterfinals to Floyd Mayweather but didn't make the 2000 games.
Aragón won the world championships at welter in 2001 beating Anthony Thompson (2001 World Amateur Boxing Championships). He repeated his win in 2003 defeating Andre Berto in the semi and Sherzod Husanov.(2003 World Amateur Boxing Championships) and also was the 2003 Pan American Games champion.
At the 2004 Summer Olympics he won the silver medal. He beat American Vanes Martirosyan but in the final, Aragón was defeated by surprise winner Bakhtiyar Artayev of Kazakhstan with a score of 36-26. Prior to the Athens Games he won the 2004 Acropolis Boxing Cup in Athens, Greece by defeating Azerbaijan's Ruslan Khairov in the final of the welterweight division.
Aragón was also a ten-time national amateur champion in Cuba, in each weight class between flyweight and welterweight.
[edit]Olympic results

1996 (Featherweight)
Defeated Nouzedinne Medjihoud (Algeria) 9-6
Defeated Rogerio de Brito (Brazil) 16-6
Lost to Floyd Mayweather, Jr. (United States) 11-12
2004 (Welterweight)
Defeated Theodoros Kotakos (Greece) RSC-3 (1:29)
Defeated Vanes Martirosyan (United States) 20-11
Defeated Ruslan Khairov (Azerbaijan) 16-14
Defeated Kim Jung-Joo (South Korea) 38-10
Lost to Bakhtiyar Artayev (Kazakhstan) 36-26
[edit]Other amateur highlights

1992 Cuban amateur flyweight champion
1992 Under-19 flyweight world champion.
1994 Cuban amateur bantmaweight champion, defeating Mario Kindelan
1994 Pan-American bantamweight champion
1995 Cuban amateur lightweight champion
1996 Cuban amateur featherweight champion
1997 Cuban amateur lightweight champion
1998 Cuban amateur Light welteweight champion
1999 Cuban amateur welterweight champion
2001 Cuban amateur welterweight champion
2001 World amateur welterweight champion at competition in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Results were:
Defeated Ryan Savage (Canada) RSC 3
Defeated Bae Ho-Jo (South Korea) RSC 3
Defeated Timour Gaidalov (Russia) 27-15
Defeated Sherzod Husanov (Uzbekistan) RSC 2
Defeated Anthony Thompson (United States) 27-15
2003 Cuban amateur welterweight champion
2003 World amateur welterweight champion at competition in Bangkok, Thailand. Results were:
Defeated Vilmos Balog (Hungary) 23-8
Defeated Bulent Ulusoy (Turkey) 18-17
Defeated Spas Genov (Bulgaria) 24-15
Defeated Non Boonjumnong (Thailand) RSC 2
Defeated Andre Berto (United States) 25-15
Defeated Sherzod Husanov uzb.,17:9
2003 gold medalist at Pan-American Games in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Results were:
Defeated Fabián Leonardo Velardes (Argentina) 23-4
Defeated Euris Gonzalez (Dominican Republic) 25-4
Defeated Juan McPherson (United States) 30-11
2004 Cuban amateur welterweight champion

very interesting he beat Berto in 2003 any1 got a vid of that fight at all?
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:30 PM   #111
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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Originally Posted by Zacker View Post
Articles like these are part of the rumour mill. Or he bought into it and is looking for things he wants to see and twisting litle factoids to make an effect. Lee Groves should be on ignore :P
And no I didn't read it all. Never will heh.
What about it jumped out at you as being biased?

Obviously he lends his impression of the match but the first couple of paragraphs are mostly informative so I'm not sure what might have put you off even wanting to finish reading it.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:19 PM   #112
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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I can't even remember what I wanted to say. Originally I just wanted to reply to one point but I couldn't help myself and all that above came out.

Right, it was about not being on the same wavelength ass Aragon and Mayweather. This irks me because it's very often said in one way or another and it's a bit disrespecting to such an accomplished boxer. For example in the piece by Lee Whatever (the one on my ignore list :P) he mentions Todorov got further than ever before in the olympics and that he turned professional after Atlanta with small success. Technically correct but an unbiased observer would say that he's a three time world and european champion and never mention the pro career at all since it really wasn't one. It was just a few pro bouts by a retired/semi-retired amateur boxer with a normal job in the military (I believe).

I wanted to say that he would have been on the same wavelength had he not been past it, and one could say that it was shown in berlin when Mayweather lost in the second round and Todorov won the gold (beating the guy who beat Mayweather in the final relatively comfortable [going on the scores because I can't remember the match]). But what I mostly remember from 1995 is that I wasn't so impressed with Todorov as I used to be.

Unfortunately I don't think there is much of Todorov on the net and I only have my memories. I have looked for clips in the past and asked the guy doing the old boxpres site to upload some of his material but I don't think he did. Todorov was a very quick long range counter puncher but also pretty much a slapper (got warnings and point deductions all the time for that). I don't think you would have liked him very much, he often got booed by the audience (you could say that that was a bulgarian speciality actually) but I enjoyed his matches tremendously. There wasn't so much left of his speed in 1996 though.

So it was a diminished and slower Todorov, OK. If an earlier version of Serafim would've done better in '96 and looked more capable relative to Mayweather & Aragón, then fair enough. I'll take your word for it, especially where as you say there isn't much of his prime stuff available online.

Talking strictly about the 1996 Games, that 29-year-old version of Todorov wasn't functioning on the same tier as 19-year-old Mayweather or 22-year-old Aragón in viewing their respective performances that summer in Georgia. There doesn't seem to be an upload of Todorov's 20-8 victory over Robbie Peden, and that's a very nice result on paper but a) it's very easy to see how, stylistically, Bomber could succumb by such a margin to a tall rangy counter-slapper and b) without video, and with all the circumstances, one still has to wonder how accurately that 20-8 reflects whatever happened there.

As takeaway from his performances against Somluck and Mayweather, we can conclude that Todorov was still a capable boxer (especially suited to what then was the "well-adjusted" AM style) but simply not at that upper clime. Mayweather in his viewable '96 performances and Aragón in just the one simply look a class above.

So the statement with which you took umbrage, about Todorov not being on their wavelength - refers exclusively to the 1996 versions of them all, if that ameliorates it any for you. I can't comment on any other version of Todorov. So if you want to say, let's suppose, that in his prime with more hand speed he would have mopped the floor with Mayweather and Aragón on the same day, well fair enough if you think so but that's purely speculative and the domain of imagination - same as me fantasizing about what Aragón's pro career might've looked like.

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Originally Posted by Zacker View Post
Spot on I think. But that's how the scoring was. And americans has been bad at adapting for a long time. In fact it only seem to get worse. Now new rules are here, although I'm sure that team USA are going to find a way to screw themselves over.
That remains to be seen. Personally I think adopting a more pro-style approach can only benefit the sport, equitably, neither favoring nor hampering any particular national program. That couldn't be said of the old way.

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Originally Posted by Zacker View Post
Sry, don't understand the italicized part.
All on the up-and-up, IYO?

It's an expression in English meaning "on the level", as in fair dealing. (IYO stands for "In Your Opinion"). So I was asking if you really thought all the whisperings of unfair aid lent to the Bulgarian team is unwarranted.

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Originally Posted by Zacker View Post
But the Emil Jetchev stuff is just circumstantial. This critique wasn't new anyway and it might just have been an opportunity to vent on him.
Circumstantial maybe, but it paints a picture. Where there's smoke...

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Originally Posted by Zacker View Post
Booing was standard in Todorov's matches, lol, but usually when he was running away and he wasn't very much against Mayweather. Anyway, the crowd surely must have been partisan towards Mayweather, this being in the USA. How much of a role does it play in the booing? Don't know and I don't concern myself with it.

I don't think the protest can be found any longer but I'm sure it has been made juicier over the years. As I remember it the only part with an actual bearing on the result was about one point in the third round. Not sure if I can find out if I'm right or wrong but I regard american media's coverage of this with a healthy dose of scepticism.
Revisiting the Tarver vs. Jirov match I posted on the last page, that same partisan crowd was roaring its approval throughout what truly was a close and even contest (wherein you could make a strong case for Tarver deserving the nod; which Al Bernstein actually did, going as far as to say Tarver was robbed in his opinion - while his co-broadcaster staunchly disagreed and felt Jirov edged it close but clear) - yet when the scores were announced in Jirov's favor there was no outrage. There were claps, whistles, and cheers. You can pick out maybe one or two knuckleheads bellowing their discontent, but mainly drowned out by the positive response acknowledging Jirov readily as the victor. Granted, the fact that Jirov has a far more exciting and fan-friendly style compared with Todorov might play into that. Still, it isn't as though Americans fan or media in Atlanta were observing the competitions through rose-colored lenses.

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Originally Posted by Zacker View Post
I had the match a win for Mayweather but with the electronic scoring system that were in place a Todorov win was possible. So I don't think it was such a robbery. It's been blown way out of proportion due to Mayweather's popularity.
I must disagree. Scoring for Todorov shouldn't have been possible, even with the procedures as they were.

The problem is that during occasions where both men landed in exchanges, Todorov would receive credit and Mayweather wouldn't. OK, once or twice maybe you can attribute that to a flaw in the electronic button-tap method...call it one or two "just slipping through the cracks". That wasn't the case, however. Todorov frequently received an imbalance of credit during instances where the leather found its target in both directions. Furthermore, isolated straight right hands of Mayweather's simply did not register as having scored...including moments when Todorov wasn't even throwing anything back, so it can't be excused by 'confusion' due to so much happening at once. Quite a few Mayweather's flush right hands connected without 'counting' - whereas Todorov seemed to get the benefit of the doubt with every slap.

That sort of imbalance is where the problem lies.

In Mayweather vs. Aragón, both men were short-changed on their jabs and body shots. Mayweather would land a jab or a few body punches, and not be credited appropriately. Likewise, the same happened to Aragón.

That is what it's all about. Equity of treatment. The issue doesn't lie so much with the contemporary flaws in the officiating (there are nearly always flaws) - but when they aren't equitably applied. It goes for all sports - if the referees/judges/etc. are going to make bad calls, you at least want them to make the same calls both ways. It's about not exacerbating a bad situation (of wrong calls being made; be it incompetent officials assigned, receiving sub-par training, or coming from a background skewing their interpretation of rules) by making it exponentially worse (with questionable actions being one-sided and giving one side the upper hand). Then it begins to appear less as regimented incompetence or misguided application and more as premeditated corruption, which is undoubtedly the greater evil. Know what I mean?


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Originally Posted by Zacker View Post
Right, I blame my reading comprehension for my categorical statment. And I blame my reading comprehension on a lack of sleep. I thought you meant someone responsible for the alledged robbery. I.e. heads were rolling due to Mayweather's loss.
No, and in fact to me it's more significant that someone unrelated directly to the incident was so moved as to proffer his resignation than if there had been overtures of internal castigation (which could just come off as damage control). Obviously if the governing authorities were dirty, they weren't going to likely incriminate themselves. A third party making such a bold gesture says even more than USA's protests being swept aside.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:24 PM   #113
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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Originally Posted by Zacker View Post
And just because... I tried to find the wording of the protest but failed. Instead I saw this:

"He wasn't tough," Mayweather said. "I thought the Cuban was tougher," referring to Lorenzo Aragon, whom he defeated wednesday night.
"Mostly he was slapping me with the strap of his gloves. When the fight finished, I thought I was ahead or at least tied. So I wasn't surprised when the referee raised my hand."

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Does that make anyone change their minds about this fight being a huge robbery?
No. Didn't think so. Neither will anything Lee Whatever writes 10 years after or the scoring of IB. I still see what I saw in 1996. The match is still worth talking about, though, but attempts to convince me are futile.

I may be alone on ESB but THERE'S MORE OF US OUT THERE!

Mmm. I like the ring of that. In whose voice should I hear those words..?

So in Floyd's own words he essentially substantiates my position: that Aragón posed more difficulty than next would the Bulgarian.

I'm guessing it was either cynicism or youthful humility (yes, humility...as his larger-than-life flamboyant persona was still years away from developing; look at the classiness of Mayweather's reaction when the unpopular decision was announced...bowing at each corner, shaking with Todorov and quietly exiting without a fuss) that made him think it could've officially been a tie. If he truly felt it ought to have been a tie and in the same breath says Aragón was tougher, wouldn't that be tantamount to saying "Aragón beat me"?
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:25 PM   #114
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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Originally Posted by SWAGGER View Post
Aragón competed at the 1996 Olympics as a featherweight, losing in the quarterfinals to Floyd Mayweather but didn't make the 2000 games.
Aragón won the world championships at welter in 2001 beating Anthony Thompson (2001 World Amateur Boxing Championships). He repeated his win in 2003 defeating Andre Berto in the semi and Sherzod Husanov.(2003 World Amateur Boxing Championships) and also was the 2003 Pan American Games champion.
At the 2004 Summer Olympics he won the silver medal. He beat American Vanes Martirosyan but in the final, Aragón was defeated by surprise winner Bakhtiyar Artayev of Kazakhstan with a score of 36-26. Prior to the Athens Games he won the 2004 Acropolis Boxing Cup in Athens, Greece by defeating Azerbaijan's Ruslan Khairov in the final of the welterweight division.
Aragón was also a ten-time national amateur champion in Cuba, in each weight class between flyweight and welterweight.
[edit]Olympic results

1996 (Featherweight)
Defeated Nouzedinne Medjihoud (Algeria) 9-6
Defeated Rogerio de Brito (Brazil) 16-6
Lost to Floyd Mayweather, Jr. (United States) 11-12
2004 (Welterweight)
Defeated Theodoros Kotakos (Greece) RSC-3 (1:29)
Defeated Vanes Martirosyan (United States) 20-11
Defeated Ruslan Khairov (Azerbaijan) 16-14
Defeated Kim Jung-Joo (South Korea) 38-10
Lost to Bakhtiyar Artayev (Kazakhstan) 36-26
[edit]Other amateur highlights

1992 Cuban amateur flyweight champion
1992 Under-19 flyweight world champion.
1994 Cuban amateur bantmaweight champion, defeating Mario Kindelan
1994 Pan-American bantamweight champion
1995 Cuban amateur lightweight champion
1996 Cuban amateur featherweight champion
1997 Cuban amateur lightweight champion
1998 Cuban amateur Light welteweight champion
1999 Cuban amateur welterweight champion
2001 Cuban amateur welterweight champion
2001 World amateur welterweight champion at competition in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Results were:
Defeated Ryan Savage (Canada) RSC 3
Defeated Bae Ho-Jo (South Korea) RSC 3
Defeated Timour Gaidalov (Russia) 27-15
Defeated Sherzod Husanov (Uzbekistan) RSC 2
Defeated Anthony Thompson (United States) 27-15
2003 Cuban amateur welterweight champion
2003 World amateur welterweight champion at competition in Bangkok, Thailand. Results were:
Defeated Vilmos Balog (Hungary) 23-8
Defeated Bulent Ulusoy (Turkey) 18-17
Defeated Spas Genov (Bulgaria) 24-15
Defeated Non Boonjumnong (Thailand) RSC 2
Defeated Andre Berto (United States) 25-15
Defeated Sherzod Husanov uzb.,17:9
2003 gold medalist at Pan-American Games in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Results were:
Defeated Fabián Leonardo Velardes (Argentina) 23-4
Defeated Euris Gonzalez (Dominican Republic) 25-4
Defeated Juan McPherson (United States) 30-11
2004 Cuban amateur welterweight champion

very interesting he beat Berto in 2003 any1 got a vid of that fight at all?
I wish!!!!

There again, we have Aragón taking on a 19-year-old athletic specimen. The difference is that Aragón was then 29 himself and nearing his end. Very impressive result...and yeah, I'd sure love to see how it played out.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:09 PM   #115
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

That was a nice right hand that dropped mayweather. Guy looks like he has good power to drop an iron chinned atg with head gear on.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:14 PM   #116
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
What about it jumped out at you as being biased?

Obviously he lends his impression of the match but the first couple of paragraphs are mostly informative so I'm not sure what might have put you off even wanting to finish reading it.
I read some in the beginning and in the end actually. The first skip came after the description of Todorov as making the tournament of his life. The man was a favourite for to medal or win. The second is the description of the announcment of the result where he interprets the behaviour of those in the ring. Pure projection. Todorov knew he had won, they had just announced it after all. It's also often described that way by the robbery proponents. And the subsequent description of his pro career was just an unnecessary dig at Todorov. No matter that he was one of the most accomplished boxers in those games. That writer probably doesn't even know.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:05 PM   #117
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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So in Floyd's own words he essentially substantiates my position: that Aragón posed more difficulty than next would the Bulgarian.

I'm guessing it was either cynicism or youthful humility (yes, humility...as his larger-than-life flamboyant persona was still years away from developing; look at the classiness of Mayweather's reaction when the unpopular decision was announced...bowing at each corner, shaking with Todorov and quietly exiting without a fuss) that made him think it could've officially been a tie. If he truly felt it ought to have been a tie and in the same breath says Aragón was tougher, wouldn't that be tantamount to saying "Aragón beat me"?
One could also take it to mean that young FM is on my side.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:49 PM   #118
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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I read some in the beginning and in the end actually. The first skip came after the description of Todorov as making the tournament of his life. The man was a favourite for to medal or win.
You mean this?

Standing in the opposite corner was Todorov, a 27-year-old veteran of three Olympics who had advanced farther in this tournament than he ever had before. As a flyweight in 1988, Todorov lost 4-1 in the quarters to eventual gold medalist Kim Kwang Sun of South Korea. In Barcelona four years later, Todorov, now a bantamweight, lost a heartbreaking 16-15 decision in the quarterfinal to North Korea’s Li Gwang Sik, who then lost to Wayne McCullough in the semis.

As a mature featherweight in Atlanta, Todorov enjoyed unqualified success. In the first round on July 22, Todorov decisioned Evgeniy Shestakov 11-4 while on July 27 he racked up a 20-8 nod over Australia’s Robbie Peden.


It doesn't seem a very backhanded compliment to me to illustrate that it was his third Olympic try at his third weight, and that he did better each time out. If anything it demonstrates that he was a serious competitor being a 2-time veteran of both Seoul and Barcelona.

If it's the phrase "unqualified success" that disturbed you, it might just be a language barrier issue.

In English, that is a literary colloquialism that means indisputable success - that is to say, it doesn't need to be qualified or have asterisks put next to it. I can see how reading it literally might lead to a misunderstanding of it meaning unqualified in the sense of being undeserved.

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The second is the description of the announcment of the result where he interprets the behaviour of those in the ring. Pure projection. Todorov knew he had won, they had just announced it after all. It's also often described that way by the robbery proponents.
I don't know, the body language between them sort of speaks for itself...

Nothing he described is fabricated. It is out there for all to see on video.

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And the subsequent description of his pro career was just an unnecessary dig at Todorov. No matter that he was one of the most accomplished boxers in those games. That writer probably doesn't even know.
I don't see that having been his intent, honestly. It was probably more to illustrate that despite the verdict life took each man down very different paths. Mayweather would go on to seventeen years of unqualified success () while Todorov lost to Kamsing and sort of fizzled out after that. AFAIK, he didn't compete between the Kamsing loss and his pro debut in '98. It wasn't meant to say "Look what a bum he proved to be!" or anything. Nobody is expecting a 31-year-old slapper to make great waves in the pro ranks with two years of rust built up. Following what I think was Groves' point to its logical conclusion, it's more like "It wouldn't have really hurt Todorov at this stage to have lost, since in hindsight beating Mayweather didn't prove to be a launchpad to big things afterward...so then it beggars speculation on the what-if scenario of Mayweather's hand getting raised and going on to meet Somluck, and whether it would've bolstered the hype machine around him (which already was in full swing before he made the American squad) even more and fast-tracked him to a nigh-inconceivable faster road to a world title.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:54 PM   #119
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

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One could also take it to mean that young FM is on my side.
That would be a streeeeeetch.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:21 PM   #120
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Default Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Lorenzo Aragón, July 31st 1996

So KC, any chance you could ask your friend in Santa Isabel de las Lajas about whether more Aragón video might be floating around?

Also, I'm curious to know if he ever spoke about the possibility of turning pro or his reasons for not doing so. (probably nationalistic loyalty, as with others who chose the same abstinence)

...and did he ever speak on the Mayweather bout? Did he feel he got a fair shake? Was he complimentary of Mayweather? Did he comment on Todorov getting the nod over a man he fought tougher against?
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