Liston v Holyfield

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by Theron

Wait so your implying that Holyfield was a heavy big strong guy more so than Cleveland Williams...c'mon
Oh yeah lets just bar the fight in which he proved he could for some reason?... what the ****, Why should we just ignore the fight that proves what i said so it can help your argument thats unbelievably retarded, Tyson was a shell and was going on intimidation, and c'mon you could see Bowes overhand right coming a mile away he didnt throw it straight like Sonny did. His strength is not proven against bigger men? really, would you consider George Foreman heavy and strong or maybe we should bar him because itll help my argument , George was young and Liston was old and shot in sparring and he could handle George and stand up to him, and if i remember correctly most people consider George to be one of the physically strongest boxers ever... And i am 100% sure he is stronger than Holyfield...

Foreman was 41 when he fought Holyfield BTW!

Liston sparred with Foreman very early in Foreman's career. Remember, Liston died in 1970 at the age of 40. He was 39 in his last fight. Foreman's pro debut was in June of 1969. Way too much is made of these sparring sessions.

You're acting like Liston beat Foreman in a fight or something!

[Theron]

Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman

Cleveland Williams sucked!

Holyfield had plenty of power.
Holyfield would be 2" taller than Liston.

Their weight is similar:

Holyfield's- HW World title weigh-in weights ranged from 205-221 Lbs. and he was always ripped. His lowest HW weight was 202 Lbs.

Liston's- ranged from 213-218 Lbs. but his lowest HW weight was 198 Lbs.

Holyfield is faster and has better footwork.

Strength? It's close but Holyfield proved he could push around much bigger men than Liston had to deal with. I'm going with Holyfield here. Liston is much smaller than many of the fighters Holyfield faced. Holyfield is bigger than almost all of the fighters Liston faced.

Punching Power? I'll give Liston a slight edge here. He didn't show his power vs. the big durable fighters like Holyfield faced though.

Durability? Holyfield. He proved his toughness vs. a much better class of fighter.

Jab? I'll go with Liston but it was a slower jab than Holmes, Bowe, or Lewis had. Rahman's jab was about as fast, as long, and pretty hard as well.

I'll take Holyfield by decision or late round KO/TKO. Liston would have his moments early on but by the middle rounds Holyfield takes control.

Are you dumb your saying Liston only has a slight edge in power to Holyfield are you special or just beyond dumb?
Cleveland Williams could hit harder than and faster hard combinations that Holyfield could.
Really push around bigger men than Liston had to i dont remember him puhing around Foreman or anybody that could compare to a young Foreman...
Liston had an 84 inch reach and would outjab Holyfield with ease
Footwork isnt so one sided Liston had great footwork
You seriously think Holyfield a blown up cruiser could get a ko/tko on Liston who had a great chin as he proved against Williams who i have to say again was a quick handed ko puncher with amazing combinations, Holys left hook cant compete with Williams speed or power in his left

[Theron]

Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman

Foreman was 41 when he fought Holyfield BTW!

Liston sparred with Foreman very early in Foreman's career. Remember, Liston died in 1970 at the age of 40. He was 39 in his last fight. Foreman's pro debut was in June of 1969. Way too much is made of these sparring sessions.

You're acting like Liston beat Foreman in a fight or something!

Yeah exacly Foreman was 41 when he fought Holy and fought at a slow pace throwing his punches very carefully
Remember Liston sparred with a young Foreman that threw a jab or 2 and then went all out throwing every punch as a power punch i dont know about you but if Liston could deal with a young Foreman with more speed and in better shape throwing every punch as a punch that could knock you out and dealing with it, compared to an older more out of shape heavier slower Foreman who conserved his energy that fought Holyfield...
I'd say id rather fight the Foreman that fought Holyfield
If Holyfield fought the Foreman that Liston sparred with what do you see happening i dont see it going well for Holyfield, do you see Holyfield seriously standing up to him and being able to push Foreman around... And staying infront of him and being able to stick in there with him throwing those bombs i dont thinks so, i dont care how big Holyfields heart is his heart dosent affect how hard and how strong the others guy is

[ripcity]

Liston's 6" reach advantage could make a big diffrance.

[lufcrazy]

Holy is the bigger man here, no doubt.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by ripcity

Liston's 6" reach could make a big diffrance.

Yeah, that's a whole six inches on the jab!

Or perhaps they mean wingspan, broadness of back and both arms included...

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Holy is the bigger man here, no doubt.

I wonder what would bring you to this conclusion.

I'd say they were of equal size. Both around 210lbs.

[Flea Man]

Agreed.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Manassa

I wonder what would bring you to this conclusion.

I'd say they were of equal size. Both around 210lbs.

holy is taller and about the same weight.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

holy is taller and about the same weight.

Therefore he is taller as opposed to bigger

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Therefore he is taller as opposed to bigger

same way Williams was bigger than Quintana

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

same way Williams was bigger than Quintana

Really?

Holyfield muscled up to 210lbs+, Liston was already there.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Really?

Holyfield muscled up to 210lbs+, Liston was already there.

Both trained to fight at that weight. Sure Holy used to cut for the cw division but that's just modern boxing for ya.

Still, if anyone is to have a size advantage it's holy imo. Although it could be a flawed opinion because given a 12 round limit Liston might have put on more muscle comfortably.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Both trained to fight at that weight. Sure Holy used to cut for the cw division but that's just modern boxing for ya.

Still, if anyone is to have a size advantage it's holy imo. Although it could be a flawed opinion because given a 12 round limit Liston might have put on more muscle comfortably.

If you put both on a desert island eating coconuts I think Liston's thicker frame would emerge.

If you can find measurements I'm sure Liston's wrists and ankles (tell tale signs, as their size is little affected by muscle gain) were bigger.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Manassa

If you put both on a desert island eating coconuts I think Liston's thicker frame would emerge.

If you can find measurements I'm sure Liston's wrists and ankles (tell tale signs, as their size is little affected by muscle gain) were bigger.

Its always tough to compare sizes from different rule sets.

Rounds fell by 25% and so were 33% longer than today but that doesn't mean those guys would be 33% heavier.

Is there anyone who fought at he during both round limits as some sort of measuring stick to see how their weight altered?