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Old 01-31-2013, 03:18 PM   #1
BoxingFanPhil
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Default On Mike Tyson

I got to thinking about where Tyson would sit in my all time great heavy weights list, given that at one time a lot of people thought he was the greatest.

Don't get me wrong - I actually love watching the prime Tyson, there's a quality about him, a tearing aggression that you can't take your eyes off.

I can't see how he would beat Ali though. Just can see that happening. I see Ali knocking him out in 8.

I think that we wouldn't get past three rounds with George Foreman (the young George that destroyed Fraser).

I think a prime Larry Holmes would handle him adeptly.

I even think that Smokin' Joe Fraser would take him in a tear up, simply because I have every reason to believe that Fraser would have the power to knock Tyson
out, and he definitely had the better chin of the two. Fraser was also mentally tougher. Hell of a good fight.

Could Tyson stand in front of Sonny Liston? Liston was so menacing he might have enough to dominate Tyson psychologically - and we all know that Liston had the power. I'm going to stick with Tyson on this one though.

I'm fairly sure that Tyson would destroy Floyd Patterson, and while I'd love to see the fight I think Tyson would also beat Rocky Marciano.

But don't get me wrong - I'm not writing Tyson off. I think he would rule the division comfortably now and neither Klitschko would cope with him.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

You're underestimating Mike's chin. I don't think Frazier
could stop Mike. Ali takes a beating but prob wins a unanimous
Over 15. Foreman Im on the fence about. Tyson deserves
To be in the top 10. H2H more like top 3.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

Tyson is a borderline top 10 Heavyweight. I have him just outside myself.

But at the time of his prime, he looked very, very special indeed. Sadly he never quite lived up to that hype.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

spinks tysons kos larry.

had a shot at ali.

he kos joe frazier easy and he beats marciano.

Tyson one of the best ever in his prime could have been the best but to many personal demons
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by HeavyweightCP View Post
spinks tysons kos larry.

had a shot at ali.

he kos joe frazier easy and he beats marciano.

Tyson one of the best ever in his prime could have been the best but to many personal demons
You really have him koing a prime Larry Holmes...
Ko's Frazier easy !?

We got a Tyson fan here this cant be good
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by HeavyweightCP View Post
spinks tysons kos larry.

had a shot at ali.

he kos joe frazier easy and he beats marciano.

Tyson one of the best ever in his prime could have been the best but to many personal demons
What about Spinks Tyson makes you think he beats Holmes any better than any other version of Tyson....I honestly think Spink Tyson is no more impressive than other versions of prime tyson..he just happened to have a guy in front of him who was taylor made for him to look awesome against.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by Theron View Post
You really have him koing a prime Larry Holmes...
Ko's Frazier easy !?

We got a Tyson fan here this cant be good
i think he KOs larry to best for best

not so sure about frazier
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

While I agree w/ your assessment on Frazier being able to beat and even stop Tyson....I would reluctantly say Tyson has the better chin. Not by as wide a disparity as many on here seem convinced of, but he would have the edge in that department.

But to debate the outcomes is trivial, we all have different oinions and while fun to discuss none can be proven or disproven. I also think those 5 you listed would all beat Tyson, along w/ a couple who were not mentioned (Louis/Holy)...but outside of those 7 I like Tyson's chances against anyone else....some will call that selling him short, but I feel it is fair...he comes in 8 on my overall HW atg list, and w/ 7 loses @ HW he would likely come in @ 8 on my H2H list as well (although in fairness I have not done a H2H list, and mathmatically he could be in the top 5 range...maybe someday if I get the time).
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

Prime Tyson is #1 H2H all time, the undisputed GOAT at his peak

Frazier would be nothing to Tyson and he'd beat him like Marvis

Holmes gets KTFO the same way he did when they actually did fight ... he can't handle the speed and power Tyson brings

Foreman may be a problem but his wide, looping shots wouldn't be able to land flush on a defensive master like Tyson ... who would proceed to move into range and unload

Tyson had the best combination of power, speed, and punch resistance of any heavyweight.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:51 AM   #10
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by KidDynamite View Post
Prime Tyson is #1 H2H all time, the undisputed GOAT at his peak

Frazier would be nothing to Tyson and he'd beat him like Marvis

Holmes gets KTFO the same way he did when they actually did fight ... he can't handle the speed and power Tyson brings


Foreman may be a problem but his wide, looping shots wouldn't be able to land flush on a defensive master like Tyson ... who would proceed to move into range and unload

Tyson had the best combination of power, speed, and punch resistance of any heavyweight.
Wow just wow now here a Tyson fanboy
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:48 AM   #11
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

I see no way frazier lasts past 3 with mike. All due respect to Joe. Prime Holmes 50 50 but i'd favor mike.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:53 AM   #12
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by brnxhands View Post
I see no way frazier lasts past 3 with mike. All due respect to Joe. Prime Holmes 50 50 but i'd favor mike.
Your v-cash total certainly inspires confidence in your predicting abilities! All due respect of course
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

We ultimately don't know who he would beat and loose to from different eras, so it is not very useful to speculate.

What we need to look at is the strengths and weaknesses of his resume, and his resume does have some strengths that cannot easily be overlooked.

Incredibly dominant early run, at a younger age than anybody had done that sort of thing before. He probably had a head start on Louis Ali and Jeffries, going into the Douglas fight. Given the fact that fighters from earlier eras were thrown to the wolves earlier in their careers, it is incredible that a fighter from his period did that!

In terms of depth and quality of opposition, his resume is deceptively strong. Although he went into decline early, he was active enough during his peak run to match some ATGs with greater longevity. On top of that, even when his career was in decline, he was actually beating ranked contenders up to very late in his career.

I will leave it for you to decide where this all leaves him in the pantheon of heavyweight champions.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:40 AM   #14
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

I dont think Tyson would beat Ali, However there is a chance, he could catch the younger,****ier Ali and if he did, he would stop Ali.

Not only does Tyson himself say, he cant beat Ali, Rooney, Cayton, Atlas, Patterson and Torres and Holmes all believe Ali would win. I did a thread on this years ago. heres the link its a very interesting read.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I believe Tyson is 50/50 with Liston, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield and Lewis and Holmes. However Tyson destroys Frazier and Marciano and Dempsey. Tyson would do better against Foreman, than Frazier did, however Frazier would perform much better against Holyfield than Tyson did.

Tyson beats both Klitsckos, stylewise Wladmir is no different to any of the guys Tyson feasted on, apart from that maybe he clinches more. Tysons whole style was based on beating guys like Wladmir.

Just my 2 cents

from the Thomas Hauser book Muhammad Ali, His Life And Times.
Chapter: Burial, page 458

It talks about Alis opinion of Tyson as well as those of Teddy Atlas, Floyd Patterson, Bill Cayton, and Kevin Rooney, Jose Torres and Larry Holmes about how Ali Vs Tyson would pan out.

Interesting to see you guys thoughts.

Alis own heavyweight rankings place himself first, Jack Johnson second and Joe Louis in third place. Even before Mike Tysons shocking loss to James Buster Douglas, Ali said in private about Tyson, "He's predictable, the way he moves his head. He has fast hands, but hes slow on his feet and my hands were faster than his. The way to beat Tyson is with a fast jab, a hard right hand, and if he hits you, you have to be able to take a punch."


Larry Holmes, who fought Tyson when "Iron Mike" was at his peak, says, "Ali would have slapped Tyson all over the ring. Tyson hits hard but he's a bully, and Ali had a way of dealing with them. Can you imagine the things Ali would have said about Tyson before that fight? Hed have made Tyson so mad, Tyson would have been running into the ropes when they started the fight."

Holmes view of Alis ring supremacy is shared by Tysons early boxing family. Jose Torres and Floyd Patterson were guided to world titles by Tysons mento, Cus Damato. Bill Cayton served with Jim Jacobs as Tysons first co-managers. Kevin Rooney and Teddy Atlas worked with D'amato as Tysons trainers. When asked to match Ali in his prime against the best Tyson has been to date, all five said Ali would prevail.


Jose Torres
"You cant explain Ali in a conventional way because he consistently did the wrong thing in the ring. He didnt bend down, he didnt go to the body, he punched going backwards. He held his hands too low, he pulled straight back from punches. He didnt even throw combinations, he threw punches in flurries. And then he would win for two reasons - speed and magic.
Against Liston, Ali wanted to quit because of his eyes, but he got pushed out by Angelo Dundee and he wins. Its magic. Against Foreman he had no business to win, but he destroyed Foremans mind like a wizard. Its magic. If Ali at his best fought the best Mike Tyson, Mike would have more power, but there would be too much magic. Because of Cus, my heart would be with Tyson. But Ali would box Mike for 12 rounds, 15 rounds as many rounds as you want easily."

Floyd Patterson
"I dont want to say anything derogatory about anybody. All I know is, anybody who moves like Clay moved is going to give his opponent a lot of problems. Ive seen Tyson with guys who moved a bit, and he had difficulty, so imagine putting him in there with Clay. Mike can be hit with the left jab if you time it properly. I dont think he would have gotten by Clays left. And he wouldnt have knocked Clay out, because Clay took a very good punch and almost never got hit. Clay beats Tyson.

Bill Cayton
"I honestly believe that Mike Tyson at his best was the second greatest heavyweight of all time, but he wasnt Muhammad Ali. Mike is quick, but Ali was quicker. Mike had power but Ali had the greatest chin ever. And Mike unfortunately is prone to frustration, which would be his achilles heel against Ali, because Ali was the best fighter in history at playng mind games with his opponent. If Ali in his prime fought Mike at his best, i see Ali winning a decision;say eight rounds to four, or nine rounds to three."

Kevin Rooney
"Ali had that special belief in himself that allowed him to impose his will on other fighters. This is a guy who took on three of the toughest heavyweights in history, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman and beat them 5 out of 6 and when he fought Frazier and Foreman he wasnt even in his prime.
The young Ali would have frustrated Mike. I see Ali coming out, jabbing, moving talking alot. If Mike had me in his corner and his head was screwed on right, it would be close. Id advise Mike to keep his hands high, be elusive, slip, move in; whenever possible work the body. Lots of feints, because Ali was a terrific counterpuncher. Believe it or not, id work the jab even if it ws to Alis chest. It would have been an interesting fight, with both guys missing alot. But even with Mike at his best, id give the edge to Ali"

Teddy Atlas
"Ali at his best beats Tyson at his best. At his core, Ali is a much stronger, more stable person. Probably the way hed have fought Mike was to rely on what he did best: jab, score from the outside, stay off the ropes, show a lot of side to side movement, neutralize the pressure, make Mike pay when he missed, tie him up when he got inside. After a while, Mike would get anxious and he would be throwing one punch at a time. Then i think hed break down mentally, which is the area where Ali was the strongest. And when that happened, Ali would start putting punches together to punch Mike downhill even more. Finally when the time was right without it being too dangerous, Ali would give Mike a reason to fall. I think Ali would knock him out around the ninth or tenth round. But before that, Mike might get so discouraged and beaten mentally that hed quit the way Liston quit".

Last edited by Azzer85; 02-01-2013 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:36 AM   #15
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Default Re: On Mike Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingFanPhil View Post
I can't see how he would beat Ali though. Just can see that happening. I see Ali knocking him out in 8.
Ali is generally considered the greatest, however he had problems with elite left hooks and jabs from pressure types, all of which Tyson possessed. Tyson also beat many fighters who modelled their style on Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingFanPhil View Post
I think that we wouldn't get past three rounds with George Foreman (the young George that destroyed Fraser).
The same Foreman was nearly KO'd by Lyle. Allot of contenders beat up on Frazier early, no one beat up on Tyson early

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingFanPhil View Post
I think a prime Larry Holmes would handle him adeptly.
Well maybe but Holmes got took to the wire by Norton and Witherspoon. Tyson was being moulded very early on to beat Holmes stylistically. He fought many fighters stylistically similar to Holmes and ofcourse the old version of Holmes himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingFanPhil View Post
I even think that Smokin' Joe Fraser would take him in a tear up, simply because I have every reason to believe that Fraser would have the power to knock Tyson
out, and he definitely had the better chin of the two. Fraser was also mentally tougher. Hell of a good fight.
Frazier had a far inferior defence, inferior technical skills, no jab, less power and was one handed. Who's Frazier chin proven against anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingFanPhil View Post
Could Tyson stand in front of Sonny Liston? Liston was so menacing he might have enough to dominate Tyson psychologically - and we all know that Liston had the power. I'm going to stick with Tyson on this one though.
The speed disparity is pretty high, Liston hasn't taken it from many 200lb+ fighters either
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