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Old 02-02-2013, 02:30 PM   #1
Manassa
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Default Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Worth a comparison I think.

People use Dempsey's 'name' opponents so I'll do the same for Moore, as in boxers who were at some point top ten rated by RING (going by Boxrec Encyclopaedia's annual ratings for Moore - largely unavailable for Dempsey):

Dempsey:

Jack Sharkey
Georges Carpentier
Bill Brennan x2
Luis Firpo
Tommy Gibbons
Gunboat Smith x2
Billy Miske x2
Jess Willard
Carl Morris x3
Fred Fulton
Battling Levinsky
Porky Dan Flynn x2
Willie Meehan
Fireman Jim Flynn

Moore:

Nino Valdes x2
Bob Baker
Bob Dunlop x2
Clarence Henry
Charley Norkus
Jimmy Slade
Jimmy Bivins x4
Rusty Payne
Phil Muscato
Curtis Sheppard x2
Buddy Walker
Joey Maxim x3
Bob Satterfield
Alejandro Lavorante

That's what I could gather anyway.

I think a couple of names on Dempsey's are very questionable. Moore's are slightly less questionable, and the big, crap heavyweights he beat (Embrel Davidson, 20-2-0, Hans Kalpfell, 16-1, James Parker, 29-5-4, Bob Albright, 21-7-3 etc., none of whom are on the above list) are worth more than Dempsey's barnstormers in my opinion.

I feel Dempsey's record scrapes the barrel a bit more; with Moore you could stretch yourself to including good journeymen and other decent-if-padded boxers like Bert Whitehurst, Alberto Lovell and Abel Cestac - if you wanted to. To be fair, if we're including someone as small as Carpentier it's tempting to mention Harold Johnson but then we're venturing into light heavyweight territory (Maxim was regularly rated at heavyweight).

Aside from those who were rated, there are at least another fifteen, probably more, heavyweights on Moore's record with Flynn-like records although that doesn't automatically put them on the same level.

Perhaps Dempsey won more emphatically but to be fair Moore did knock out plenty of them.

This was less about putting down Dempsey ("yeah, right" they say) and more about Moore's greatness.

Thoughts?

Last edited by Manassa; 02-02-2013 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Haha dangerous thread, looking forward to seeing this unfold.

I don't wanna give too much of an opinion yet but bivins is probably the best name on both lists.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:23 PM   #3
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

175 pages
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

:d
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Good thread, M. It's worth considering that Moore's heavyweight record is comparable to the records of some great heavyweights, despite him not grabbing the title or being in an era where he could just grab a title. He was a damn good heavyweight and backed up that regard at the least.

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175 pages
And this is not the last time we'll be seeing you on them.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:34 PM   #6
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

on the surface, the comparison is fare and certainly not overwhelming in favour of dempsey...and luf, bivins may be the best name though im partial to sharkey
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Incidentally, i'm presuming this thread is more about Moore than Dempsey, coming from you. That being hte case, was there anyone other than Dempsey that you considered for it?
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxed Ears
Good thread, M
Thanks.

This is why I rate Moore so highly (#10 pound-for-pound, no lower, and that is final). He was an excellent heavyweight with the scalps to prove like you said, and to his credit, the only people to really beat him there were Marciano, Ali and Patterson when he was old.

Moore, mid forties or older against a 210lbs contender: "Lavorante was carried from the ring on a stretcher."



They like to say Bernard Hopkins is a modern day Moore but really, with respect to Hopkins, he isn't even close.

Shit, at one point Moore, in consecutive fights, weighed:

175lbs
190lbs
190lbs
173lbs
196lbs
175lbs
188lbs

That is hard work, and not the only string of examples.

Oops, need to edit, missed another rated heavyweight, Norkus

I'm laughing because even to a massive fan like myself, Moore has me in awe at every analysis.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Incidentally, i'm presuming this thread is more about Moore than Dempsey, coming from you. That being hte case, was there anyone other than Dempsey that you considered for it?
Look, if I can kill two birds with one stone...
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Thanks.

This is why I rate Moore so highly (#10 pound-for-pound, no lower, and that is final). He was an excellent heavyweight with the scalps to prove like you said, and to his credit, the only people to really beat him there were Marciano, Ali and Patterson when he was old.

Moore, mid forties or older against a 210lbs contender: "Lavorante was carried from the ring on a stretcher."



They like to say Bernard Hopkins is a modern day Moore but really, with respect to Hopkins, he isn't even close.

Shit, at one point Moore, in consecutive fights, weighed:

175lbs
190lbs
190lbs
173lbs
196lbs
175lbs
188lbs

That is hard work, and not the only string of examples.

Oops, need to edit, missed another rated heavyweight, Norkus

I'm laughing because even to a massive fan like myself, Moore has me in awe at every analysis.

Green 1: Every time I try to list-up, I always have Mongoose in the 10-15 spots, somewhere.

Green 2: I agree completely with this. They're separated by many spots on my list.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Quote:
Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
Manassa, what you think of Moore's classic battle against Yvon Durelle? Great comeback considering he was viciously knocked down yet disposed of Durelle regardless later on. One of my favorite fights of all time, and really demonstrates the true skill and tenacity of the Ol' Mongoose.

How many fighters can claim to be one of the best ever in a historically stacked division such as light-heavyweight yet still achieve great things at heavyweight, knocking the shit out of plenty of bigger men? Not many.
It's the stuff of legends. His punching is beautiful.

Get this: Moore fought in Italy, Canada, Brazil, Germany, England, Argentina, Uruguay, Panama and Australia and beat their best in between boxing in the USA.

Started career as a welterweight too remember.

Sorry, I'm really selling this aren't I?
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:17 PM   #12
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Quote:
Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
Old Archie was a real warrior.

In regards to the actual thread question, I still think Dempsey had a superior heavyweight resume despite some of the "name" boxers being past it, or light, or sick, etc. Still ridiculously impressive that Moore accomplished what he did, though.
i wonder though...i only really learned of moores heavyweight resume. how would it stack up to dempseys in an objective side by side analysis. JUST the fighters and results...how thosr fighters ranked then and historically?

i think we could have a REAL debate here (imagine if the consensus was moore had a better resume??)
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:32 PM   #13
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
If we were to compare them without factoring in the ailments or disadvantages of any opponent, then Dempsey's is still better to me.
fair enough. who would you say were moore's top 3 wins/opponents?

for dempsey I'm thinking sharkey, fulton and gibbons

for moore...bivins, valdes and maxim?
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

Personally I think they're even.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Personally I think they're even.
No I don't actually, Moore's has more depth at the C level.
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