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Old 02-02-2013, 08:50 PM   #31
Rex Tickard
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Circumstantial maybe. I could see Moore thrashing an inactive Willard to a late stoppage.
You could've just as well seen Moore thrashing a weak-chinned, comparatively inexperienced Patterson before their fight actually happened.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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You could've just as well seen Moore thrashing a weak-chinned, comparatively inexperienced Patterson before their fight actually happened.
good point. but that fight took advantage of moore's physical decline with a MUCH faster younger fighter. willard would have been a come forward oaf who could've been counterpunched nearly to death
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:02 PM   #33
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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You could've just as well seen Moore thrashing a weak-chinned, comparatively inexperienced Patterson before their fight actually happened.
Seems like you're saying Willard could win. His chances wouldn't be very good. Moore would enjoyed a lovely feast. Patterson was quick, skillful and energetic. Moore at that age had to pace himself, especially after the grueling Marciano fight, and in retrospect Patterson was more than a handful for him. I don't believe a 1919 Willard had the speed to beat that '56 version of Moore, let alone from 1951.
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

**** me....just watching some moore now. what a brilliant ****ing jab. never thought of him much as a jabber but it was great: sharp, powerful and he threw it with very little telegraphing
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:22 PM   #35
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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**** me....just watching some moore now. what a brilliant ****ing jab. never thought of him much as a jabber but it was great: sharp, powerful and he threw it with very little telegraphing
Funny because today that's what stood out to me, too.

Moore was quite a perfect fighter whose weaknesses were an average durability and diminishing stamina as he aged. He compensated with an excellent defence built around rolling and counter punching, and by pacing himself. In the Durelle fights, I love how he makes space and lets Durelle fall onto the shots. I don't think Moore was always as slick as he became; very much a learning boxer who I believe hit a late peak just before his body started to slow and with the benefit of vast experience (early fifties).

Moore, if I were to describe him, had one of the most complete skill sets offensively and defensively, and if he had a let down, it was something natural and out of his control (durability mostly I suppose). Quick, powerful, determined and crafty.
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:44 PM   #36
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

This thread, against all odds, has actually impressed me.

By modern standards beating Valdes makes Moore atleast an alpha claimant. I could with revaluating his worth as a fighter in his prime, Charles did he ever really beat a prime Moore or did he just catch a series at the right time?
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:46 PM   #37
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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agreed. the fact that willard was the reigning titlest doesn't mean as much as his overall quality, which wasn't that much
The same could be said of Patterson during his reign, though.

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the HOF fighters he beat are impressive but i'm assuming they are carpentier, gibbons, willard himself, miske, sharkey and for the life of me can't think of the last.
Levinsky.

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regardless, carpentier was undersized and outmatched. he was not a heavyweight and the fight was more a testimony to the promoters than dempsey himself. comparable to mayweather vs marquez

gibbons was a great fighter, small but a solid win even though dempsey struggled quite a bit and by reports, the fight displayed his flaws

willard i don't find much quality in. big, inactive farmhand who was rightly bludgeoned under the rules of the day.

sharkey was dominating him by every report until a nut punch that would have made tito proud turned the tide.

miske i don't know enough about to offer a fair judgement either way.

i don't see the all time great quality of dempsey's heavyweight resume.
If you're going to go out of the way to make this many excuses, then of course you won't see the quality.

The same sort of "criticisms" could be made of Moore's HOF competition. Bivins, Maxim, and Johnson were all LHWs as well, with Bivins even starting his career as a MW. Moore's wins over Bivins came when the latter was on the decline following his loss to Walcott (after a peak Bivins had KO'd Moore) and most of Moore's wins over Johnson came when he was comparatively inexperienced.

Patterson could also be criticized the same way - and Moore failed to win that one.
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:52 PM   #38
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
This thread, against all odds, has actually impressed me.

By modern standards beating Valdes makes Moore atleast an alpha claimant. I could with revaluating his worth as a fighter in his prime, Charles did he ever really beat a prime Moore or did he just catch a series at the right time?
I'd say he was in his prime. Really, Moore's prime could span '45 to '55, being a late bloomer, his best run (54-2-1 from '48 to '55) attributed to him not having to fight Charles again. That said, '40s Moore does look more reckless, even if he had more in the tank. The series was closer than the 3-0 implies, Moore getting nearer to the win each time. Charles was exceptional enough to pull out the wins.
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:52 PM   #39
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Originally Posted by Rex Tickard View Post
The same could be said of Patterson during his reign, though.



Levinsky.



If you're going to go out of the way to make this many excuses, then of course you won't see the quality.

The same sort of "criticisms" could be made of Moore's HOF competition. Bivins, Maxim, and Johnson were all LHWs as well, with Bivins even starting his career as a MW. Moore's wins over Bivins came when the latter was on the decline following his loss to Walcott (after a peak Bivins had KO'd Moore) and most of Moore's wins over Johnson came when he was comparatively inexperienced.

Patterson could also be criticized the same way - and Moore failed to win that one.
that's fair but bivins, maxim and johnson all rate higher than virtually all of dempsey's victims save maybe gibbons. if you consider maxim and johnson at or near their primes then these wins are VERY impressive. bivins himself i can't say how close he was to his prime but considering his overall quality, it's a tremendous win. moore's competition can be criticized certainly but i feel dempsey's is a bit more open to it and his opponents, save for a few exceptions, rate notably lower all time, both p4p and at possible at heavyweight.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:00 PM   #40
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Originally Posted by Rex Tickard View Post
The same could be said of Patterson during his reign, though.



Levinsky.



If you're going to go out of the way to make this many excuses, then of course you won't see the quality.

The same sort of "criticisms" could be made of Moore's HOF competition. Bivins, Maxim, and Johnson were all LHWs as well, with Bivins even starting his career as a MW. Moore's wins over Bivins came when the latter was on the decline following his loss to Walcott (after a peak Bivins had KO'd Moore) and most of Moore's wins over Johnson came when he was comparatively inexperienced.

Patterson could also be criticized the same way - and Moore failed to win that one.
Moore beat a very good version of Bivins at least twice.

Johnson was as good as he was ever going to get and had five shots at Moore, winning one. This is a light heavyweight equivalent of something like Muhammad Ali beating Joe Frazier 4-1.

You are quite right in saying Moore and Dempsey can both be criticised equally, the point of this thread being that Moore did have a very respectable 180lbs+ record, despite starting his career as a welterweight, forging a very good career at middleweight and balancing the light heavyweight title for years in between scalping the lower top ten heavyweights.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:02 PM   #41
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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willard would have been a come forward oaf who could've been counterpunched nearly to death
Willard wasn't a "come forward oaf," he showed a good jab and boxing skills against Johnson and Moran.

Nino Valdes was much more of a "come forward oaf," yet he still managed to give Moore a close, hard fight in their rematch.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:04 PM   #42
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Willard wasn't a "come forward oaf," he showed a good jab and boxing skills against Johnson and Moran.

Nino Valdes was much more of a "come forward oaf," yet he still managed to give Moore a close, hard fight in their rematch.
willard did show a good jab and you're right, he wasn't come forward but cautious. by the time dempsey fought him though, i don't give him much of a shot in the least against a peak moore
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:11 PM   #43
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Johnson was as good as he was ever going to get and had five shots at Moore, winning one.
That's a very questionable statement. Johnson was only in his first few years as a pro for all but one of the Moore fights. Although he was more experienced by the time of the title fight, he was still competing in his first 15-rounder, and his lack of experience and confidence over that distance showed in the later stages of the fight.

In the years following the final Moore fight, Johnson showed better poise, tighter defense, better punch placement, and possibly even a better chin in his fights.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:27 PM   #44
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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That's a very questionable statement. Johnson was only in his first few years as a pro for all but one of the Moore fights. Although he was more experienced by the time of the title fight, he was still competing in his first 15-rounder, and his lack of experience and confidence over that distance showed in the later stages of the fight.

In the years following the final Moore fight, Johnson showed better poise, tighter defense, better punch placement, and possibly even a better chin in his fights.
Nah. You could argue Johnson was mildly inexperienced in the first fight (where he was 24-0) but that's it. Johnson fought Moore three times in a row in '51 and '52 and had been a professional since 1946. Green? I think not. Especially not after having already fought Moore once, and then Bivins and Walcott among other decent boxers.

Clutching at straws a bit. Especially since, like I said, Johnson had a full five shots at Moore. Johnson was a great fighter, a top twenty light heavyweight, and Moore's superiority is why on many peoples' lists he's the #2 all-time in the division.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:17 AM   #45
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Nah. You could argue Johnson was mildly inexperienced in the first fight (where he was 24-0) but that's it. Johnson fought Moore three times in a row in '51 and '52 and had been a professional since 1946. Green? I think not. Especially not after having already fought Moore once, and then Bivins and Walcott among other decent boxers.
Only 24 fights with no amateur experience is more than just "mildly inexperienced" - especially when matched with an opponent with over 100 pro fights. Fighting Bivins and Walcott (the latter of whom beat him) doesn't automatically place him in his prime either - rather, he was being grossly mismanaged and thrown to the wolves at this stage of his career.

Even 4 years and 30-something fights of pro experience is notably less than what many of his contemporary contenders had at that time.

In the late 40s and early 50s, Johnson had a tendency to lose poise and get dropped - not only against Moore, but also against Satterfield, Billy Smith, and Paul Andrews. The late 50s/early 60s Johnson was seldom, if ever dropped, while also appearing to be punching harder.
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