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Old 02-03-2013, 12:24 AM   #46
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Originally Posted by Rex Tickard View Post
Only 24 fights with no amateur experience is more than just "mildly inexperienced" - especially when matched with an opponent with over 100 pro fights. Fighting Bivins and Walcott (the latter of whom beat him) doesn't automatically place him in his prime either - rather, he was being grossly mismanaged and thrown to the wolves at this stage of his career.

Even 4 years and 30-something fights of pro experience is notably less than what many of his contemporary contenders had at that time.

In the late 40s and early 50s, Johnson had a tendency to lose poise and get dropped - not only against Moore, but also against Satterfield, Billy Smith, and Paul Andrews. The late 50s/early 60s Johnson was seldom, if ever dropped, while also appearing to be punching harder.
So essentially what you are saying is highly subjective and/or slightly pedantic and we can put it down to a difference in opinion. I mean, I could say Johnson's level of opposition declined after Moore and that's what's skewing your perception.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:45 AM   #47
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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I mean, I could say Johnson's level of opposition declined after Moore and that's what's skewing your perception.
A change in opposition has no bearing on how tightly Johnson keeps his guard.

Moreover, fighters like Doug Jones, Eddie Machen, Eddie Cotton, and Gustav Sholz do not represent a "decline" from fighters like Satterfield, Smith, or Andrews.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:37 AM   #48
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

I'm going 47-56 for his prime.

After the loss to bivins he seems to have brought it all together. Sure he got sparked by morrow but anyone fighting that often is bound to get caught cold at some point. During this time he only lost to Charles, Marciano, Johnson, Patterson, Hall, Morrow and a strange loss to Gibson.

I wonder when his physical prime was, not just his best run of results or his completion as a fighter but when he physically had all the assets together.

For instance I reckon Wlads true prime began in 05 when Steward took over but physically he was probably prime from about 2000.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:58 AM   #49
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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I'm going 47-56 for his prime.
He looks excellent against Oakland Billy - 1946.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:00 AM   #50
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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He looks excellent against Oakland Billy - 1946.
You reckon he was as good then as ever?
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:19 AM   #51
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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You reckon he was as good then as ever?
Probably, yes.

We've discussed a bit Moore's prime with PP:

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Originally Posted by Lester1583 View Post
Was Archie green or was his opposition much tougher?
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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
His post-Championship comp was weaker H Johnson aside, but I think there was a clear progression from the Archie who was dominated by Burley and Booker, to the Archie who beat Holman and Marshall and giving Charles close fights

Physically too he became a very strong 175lber too, which I think suited his body much more than being a lanky 160lber
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Good point.

That's possible.

There's only brief highlights of younger Moore fighting Ron Richardson in 1940 - hard to tell how good Moore was back then.

Against Smith in 1946 he looks excellent already - kinda like Toney with bigger firepower.

And he looks faster, more agile, with better reflexes than in the latter part of his career.

The fight, incidentally, took place after the first Ezz fight and before the second one.

By that time Moore was already campaigning at light heavyweight.

Too bad Moore footage is scarce - makes it hard to pinpoint the exact moment when Moore started to decline.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:15 AM   #52
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Default Re: Archie Moore's heavyweight record versus Jack Dempsey's

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Originally Posted by Rex Tickard View Post
A change in opposition has no bearing on how tightly Johnson keeps his guard.

Moreover, fighters like Doug Jones, Eddie Machen, Eddie Cotton, and Gustav Sholz do not represent a "decline" from fighters like Satterfield, Smith, or Andrews.
Rex Tickard,like what you said about Johnson,who I think was a great,underrated fighter.Although beaten a few times by Moore,also a great fighter{but recognised as such}I believe at the time you refer to,he would,if they had fought,have beaten Archie convincingly at either weight.Hypothetical,but IMO if hed been around today the only reason he wouldnt be undisputed champion would be that the others refused to fight him.
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